(02-20-2023, 12:38 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The "potential" for him to improve is all well and good but, worst case, depth is needed at that position. If you get a chance to improve a position, you improve a position. 

If he ends up looking better next TC, great. I'll be super happy. He has quite a bit of work to do.

We aren’t doing what we did last year in addressing the OL in FA. The moneys not there. The two tackle spots mid a worry

(02-20-2023, 01:06 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I don't need this reminder. We're about to go in circles again. Volson was bad, overall. Him being a rookie is irrelevant to that. At best, it is an excuse. Comparing him to other rookies, he may have been fine. This does not mean that he is beyond repair, or that he is garbage, or that he is incapable of improving, or that he will never be good or whatever else can be thought of here.

It means he was bad. I don't care if he was a rookie or a 14 year vet. This is a Super Bowl caliber team with a massive deficit at OL. Making excuses for a bad OL player because he is a rookie is silly. Believing that he can't improve is also silly. This isn't difficult. 

Sorry didn’t mean you needed a reminder and why I used lol and used the word some. Tried to make that obvious. I have total faith in Volson next year, I think vastly improved

(02-20-2023, 01:21 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Sorry didn’t mean you needed a reminder and why I used lol and used the word some. Tried to make that obvious. I have total faith in Volson next year, I think vastly improved

Oh, okay, I see what you mean now. I'm sorry about that, I missed the underlying tone of your message. 

(02-20-2023, 12:24 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Draft a RT, there will be 2 where we draft and another that proved he could make the transition.  We cant live off an oline full of free agents.

If we draft Torrence, Schmitz or Avila they push Volson out and then try him at RT I guess....but if he wasnt great vs speed in a phone booth I don't see how he could be better on an island?

As to Volson at RT in college, this is from the link above:  "Volson wasn't asked to pass protect all that often at North Dakota State, especially in true dropback scenarios."

Ask yourself about that for Carman.  He said simply there is more space to react.  And more distance to the QB.  It just isn't etched in stone that he can only be a LG.  Whit started at G and he struggled big time when he started at OT.  Still became a HOF.  

(02-20-2023, 12:33 PM)Joelist Wrote: What would be useful would be Volson's performance for each game in order and how he compared to the other NFL Guards after each game was completed. Then you can see if he trended in the right direction.

This is actually a good idea. I went ahead and plotted it out with a trendline included in the graph. I removed week one from the graph because of how atrocious it was, but the rolling averages after each week include week one. It just isn't plotted. 



Pressure percentage, Volson flirted with being an average NFL G but finished below average after a tough final week. 



Pretty much the same story for sack percentage. 



According to PFF grades, Volson didn't really improve much in run blocking as the season went on. He had a tough dip at the start of the season, rebounded towards the middle and was essentially a league average run blocker for the rest of the season. 

(02-20-2023, 12:38 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The "potential" for him to improve is all well and good but, worst case, depth is needed at that position. If you get a chance to improve a position, you improve a position. 

If he ends up looking better next TC, great. I'll be super happy. He has quite a bit of work to do.

This is what worries me.

I hear some advocating for a rookie to come in and start while Collins recovers.
OL is one of the hardest positions to play well immediately as a rookie.

Volson did ok, but he was horrendous the first part of the season.
He eventually got to arguably serviceable by the end of the season.
Definitely not what I would consider an above-average starter yet.

Do fans want to risk a rookie OT starting in place of Collins while he recovers, knowing that the likelihood a rookie is going to play well in the first half of their rookie season is low?

I can understand wanting to get someone to groom for a year or two, but people expecting that a rookie is going to come in and play well right from the get-go at one of the toughest positions on offense is arguably unrealistic.

(02-19-2023, 11:40 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That would be optimal. If they were able to get a T in rd1 and they got a G in 2 or 3, it wouldn't be too disruptive if Carman outplayed Jonah and the new G outplayed Volson. Though, i'd say the hope is that Jonah comes back strong and Volson shows improvement in TC so that the only new part is the RT. At least that way, you can feel comfortable with a LT and LG that will come off the bench strong. 

IF they did have 3 new guys again next year, they're going to have to make sure they get snaps together in preseason. Haaaaave to. 

P.S. with all that said, i wouldn't be surprised if they don't look for anything to push Volson. 

Agree. People seem to forget Williams hurt his knee early in the season and played through it, then hurt it again against Baltimore. He played pretty well in 21, I think he bounces back if he can stay healthy.

(02-20-2023, 01:06 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I don't need this reminder. We're about to go in circles again. Volson was bad, overall. Him being a rookie is irrelevant to that. At best, it is an excuse. Comparing him to other rookies, he may have been fine. This does not mean that he is beyond repair, or that he is garbage, or that he is incapable of improving, or that he will never be good or whatever else can be thought of here.

It means he was bad. I don't care if he was a rookie or a 14 year vet. This is a Super Bowl caliber team with a massive deficit at OL. Making excuses for a bad OL player because he is a rookie is silly. Believing that he can't improve is also silly. This isn't difficult. 

This post is about as objective and fair as you can get. 

I don't see how anyone could possibly have a problem with it. 

(02-20-2023, 01:13 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: We aren’t doing what we did last year in addressing the OL in FA. The moneys not there. The two tackle spots mid a worry

Tackle spots are certainly a priority. I'd keep Jonah and Carman on the left and let them battle it out and draft a RT this year. 

No free agents necessary.

If we go into the year with Jonah/Carmen, Volson, Karras, Cappa, rookie (wright hopefully), i'll be good with that. Though i would prefer another mid round G for competition or to better the depth.

(02-20-2023, 02:13 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This is what worries me.

I hear some advocating for a rookie to come in and start while Collins recovers.
OL is one of the hardest positions to play well immediately as a rookie.

Volson did ok, but he was horrendous the first part of the season.
He eventually got to arguably serviceable by the end of the season.
Definitely not what I would consider an above-average starter yet.

Do fans want to risk a rookie OT starting in place of Collins while he recovers, knowing that the likelihood a rookie is going to play well in the first half of their rookie season is low?

I can understand wanting to get someone to groom for a year or two, but people expecting that a rookie is going to come in and play well right from the get-go at one of the toughest positions on offense is arguably unrealistic.

There will be one or two rookie tackles that come in and play very well. It happens every year. The trick is...finding the right guy. 

If they could fit Jawaan Taylor in as a FA, for multiple years, mo' betta. I'm more a fan of a good RT on a rookie deal though. 

(02-20-2023, 02:19 PM)Wyche Wrote: Agree. People seem to forget Williams hurt his knee early in the season and played through it, then hurt it again against Baltimore. He played pretty well in 21, I think he bounces back if he can stay healthy.

Am i wrong...or didn't he hurt kneecaps in both knees? One early and one later--different knees?

Or was it the same knee?

(02-20-2023, 03:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Am i wrong...or didn't he hurt kneecaps in both knees? One early and one later--different knees?

Or was it the same knee?

Both kneecaps. And it showed. 

(02-20-2023, 02:56 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Tackle spots are certainly a priority. I'd keep Jonah and Carman on the left and let them battle it out and draft a RT this year. 

No free agents necessary.

If we go into the year with Jonah/Carmen, Volson, Karras, Cappa, rookie (wright hopefully), i'll be good with that. Though i would prefer another mid round G for competition or to better the depth.

Remember we have Ben Brown coming off IR.  Mid-round guards at # 131 will be USC's Andrew Vorhees, UW Jaxon Kirkland, NCSt Chandler Zavala. 

(02-20-2023, 03:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Am i wrong...or didn't he hurt kneecaps in both knees? One early and one later--different knees?

Or was it the same knee?

(02-20-2023, 03:05 PM)Joelist Wrote: Both kneecaps. And it showed. 

Yes, both. I can't believe he didn't miss any more time than he did after the first one. Gotta give him a little credit for gutting it out.

(02-20-2023, 01:51 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: This is actually a good idea. I went ahead and plotted it out with a trendline included in the graph. I removed week one from the graph because of how atrocious it was, but the rolling averages after each week include week one. It just isn't plotted. 



Pressure percentage, Volson flirted with being an average NFL G but finished below average after a tough final week. 



Pretty much the same story for sack percentage. 



According to PFF grades, Volson didn't really improve much in run blocking as the season went on. He had a tough dip at the start of the season, rebounded towards the middle and was essentially a league average run blocker for the rest of the season. 

Ill take it for a late round rookie. Average play. The question now is what is his ceiling. Is this it? 

(02-20-2023, 03:00 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: There will be one or two rookie tackles that come in and play very well. It happens every year. The trick is...finding the right guy. 

If they could fit Jawaan Taylor in as a FA, for multiple years, mo' betta. I'm more a fan of a good RT on a rookie deal though. 

Taylor might frustrate some fans.

While his PFF blocking grades have been mostly good, his sack numbers have been high at times.
2019 - 9 sacks
2020 - 8 sacks
2021 - 6 sacks
2022 - 5 sacks

It's also worth noting that Taylor did not come in and play well his first couple years, and he was 35th pick in 2019.
So there's definitely no guarantee that an early draft pick plays well on the OL (especially OT).

While I like a few RT prospects in this draft, I don't know if there are any that I would feel 100% confidence in starting Day 1.

(02-20-2023, 01:29 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Ask yourself about that for Carman.  He said simply there is more space to react.  And more distance to the QB.  It just isn't etched in stone that he can only be a LG.  Whit started at G and he struggled big time when he started at OT.  Still became a HOF.  

Carmen at Clemson in pro-sets vs Volson at SDSU for 11 years in a run-based offense could be a difference.  My main issue is that the kid wasnt terrible and with a year of experience he could become a solid guard.  Starting him all over again and disrupting 2 positons on the line isnt optimal in my mind.

(02-20-2023, 03:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Am i wrong...or didn't he hurt kneecaps in both knees? One early and one later--different knees?

Or was it the same knee?

The good thing about Carman is I think he wants a shot at LT. A little competition amongst the tackles is a good thing.

There used to be a member here who was well respected for their offensive line play evaluations. Think it was RoyleRedLegs. We could sure use someone like that in this discussion.

(02-20-2023, 10:18 PM)SouthernFan Wrote: There used to be a member here who was well respected for their offensive line play evaluations. Think it was RoyleRedLegs. We could sure use someone like that in this discussion.

Yeah, definitely one of the best here and the old school board. Some of the best breakdowns you'll see on here or several other platforms.