The Current State of the OL Room

[*ochocincos*]

(05-11-2022, 01:50 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m not sure I’d be anymore “excited” about Carman as the starter. I would almost rather D’Ante Smith or Volson beat him out. At least we’d know they earned it, and it wasn’t a matter of getting the chance because of where they were drafted.

Did Adeniji "earn" getting 9 regular season starts and 4 playoff starts?
If Smith or Volson "earns" the spot and plays like Adeniji did, that's not really a great thing.
In fact, you have to question why Adeniji, given all the sacks he allowed this season, got so many starts/snaps.
You'd think it would have made more sense to even put XSF back in there over Adeniji based on Adeniji's performance.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-11-2022, 02:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Ridiculous argument.

You seriously hope that none of our high draft picks get to start?

My guess is that this logic only applies to Carman because you don't like him.

JFC your Fredness has been turned up to 11 the last couple days. Not doing this with you. I trust Pollack. Let the best man win.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-11-2022, 06:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Did Adeniji "earn" getting 9 regular season starts and 4 playoff starts?
If Smith or Volson "earns" the spot and plays like Adeniji did, that's not really a great thing.
In fact, you have to question why Adeniji, given all the sacks he allowed this season, got so many starts/snaps.
You'd think it would have made more sense to even put XSF back in there over Adeniji based on Adeniji's performance.

I didn’t like Adeniji playing that much (especially in the Super Bowl), but Frank Pollack has forgotten more about OL play than anyone on this board will ever know. There had to be a reason Carman couldn’t get on the field. Whether that was poor practices, lack of work ethic/conditioning, his back, or whatever other reasons - idk. None of us do.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-11-2022, 02:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is not meant as an insult to Sunset in any way, but having a problem with your back does not make you qualified to give an opinion on Carman's problem. Sunset has never seen an MRI or even examined Carman's back.

So, for now I will trust the people who graduated from medical school and actually examined Carman's back.  If there was a serious problem I believe we would have taken an O-lineman before the 4th round.

Yeah, the medical staff, Pollack, Coaches and the FO know more than we do.

They seem high on Carman being alright too from the little I have heard.

I will change my prediction to Carman starting, I just don't know enough and I do really like Volson too.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-11-2022, 04:44 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: I wouldn't call anyone on our offensive line a star except La'el Collins who is a former pro bowler, Jonah Williams is above average and Karras and Cappa are solid but hardly stars.  I think any 1 really bad player can make an offensive line below average.  Just look at Eric Ghiacuic, Cedric Ogbuehi, and Adeniji for example and how much they impacted our offensive lines.  1 weak link can make the entire offensive line look bad even if everyone else is doing their job.

You seem to be missing the bigger point of what I was trying to say.  Let me try to explain it a little better.  This roster has a lot of star power on in, star players all cost a lot of money.  In the NFL there is this thing called the salary cap that all teams must adhere to, in an effort to keep an even chance of success for all teams in the league.  It is impossible to have star players at every position on a team, it simply costs too much.

What the Bengals did, was seek out specific OL who's skills matched well with what they are wanting to accomplish, yet not cost so much that they can not afford to spend money on other areas of the team.  In my opinion, the Bengals did a fantastic job of retooling the OL, keeping the budget concerns in mind, as well as drafting to improve the team for future years.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-11-2022, 10:15 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: JFC your Fredness has been turned up to 11 the last couple days. Not doing this with you. I trust Pollack. Let the best man win.

That was funny

[Luvnit2]

(05-11-2022, 10:19 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I didn’t like Adeniji playing that much (especially in the Super Bowl), but Frank Pollack has forgotten more about OL play than anyone on this board will ever know. There had to be a reason Carman couldn’t get on the field. Whether that was poor practices, lack of work ethic/conditioning, his back, or whatever other reasons - idk. None of us do.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

So true

It is amusing how so many fans just have to find a player or players to chastise. I agree we have OL that played poorly in 2021, but to write young OL off so early in the careers is ignorant in my opinion. Players get better with great coaching. I just wish some would learn from some of their past posts that are later proven wrong and not make same mistakes over an over again (not you of course).

[Luvnit2]

(05-12-2022, 08:12 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You seem to be missing the bigger point of what I was trying to say.  Let me try to explain it a little better.  This roster has a lot of star power on in, star players all cost a lot of money.  In the NFL there is this thing called the salary cap that all teams must adhere to, in an effort to keep an even chance of success for all teams in the league.  It is impossible to have star players at every position on a team, it simply costs too much.

What the Bengals did, was seek out specific OL who's skills matched well with what they are wanting to accomplish, yet not cost so much that they can not afford to spend money on other areas of the team.  In my opinion, the Bengals did a fantastic job of retooling the OL, keeping the budget concerns in mind, as well as drafting to improve the team for future years.

Spot on!!!!!!!!!

[Luvnit2]

(05-11-2022, 12:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I like the Volson pick, but if we have a 4th round rookie starting on our O-line then we have problems.

Fred too many 1st round picks have started and busted in year one. My point is draft position is not relevant once a player is drafted, if our OL coach thinks he is better (not due to injury of other OL) than vets and starts it does not mean gloom and doom.

Some players are more NFL ready than others, maybe he is one of them so I would not immediately go to gloom and doom if a rookie 4th rround pick starts on the OL or 2nd round CB or 3rd round DL either. 

[Soonerpeace]

(05-11-2022, 04:44 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: I wouldn't call anyone on our offensive line a star except La'el Collins who is a former pro bowler, Jonah Williams is above average and Karras and Cappa are solid but hardly stars.  I think any 1 really bad player can make an offensive line below average.  Just look at Eric Ghiacuic, Cedric Ogbuehi, and Adeniji for example and how much they impacted our offensive lines.  1 weak link can make the entire offensive line look bad even if everyone else is doing their job.

(05-12-2022, 08:12 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You seem to be missing the bigger point of what I was trying to say.  Let me try to explain it a little better.  This roster has a lot of star power on in, star players all cost a lot of money.  In the NFL there is this thing called the salary cap that all teams must adhere to, in an effort to keep an even chance of success for all teams in the league.  It is impossible to have star players at every position on a team, it simply costs too much.

What the Bengals did, was seek out specific OL who's skills matched well with what they are wanting to accomplish, yet not cost so much that they can not afford to spend money on other areas of the team.  In my opinion, the Bengals did a fantastic job of retooling the OL, keeping the budget concerns in mind, as well as drafting to improve the team for future years.

Cappa had 1182 snaps 1 penalty. 796 pass blocks (5 sacks) . "Alex Cappa is a solid starting right guard who has improved every year in NFL," Ledyard tweeted. "He also played through a broken arm and tried to stay in a game with a broken leg. Don't know how high the ceiling is bc he lacks great tools/athleticism. But great technique is his calling card... He's a tough, team-first guy with an ultra-physical mentality."

I’ll add he’s penalty free. He plays hurt. He’s 27. He has great technique. He played on a winning team. Team first guy. Sounds awfully good.

Karras had 2 penalties in 829 snaps and gave up 3 sacks out of 425 pass plays. Karras was low balled by the Pats and the Pats site said this: After leaving New England to join Miami in 2020, Karras quickly returned to the Pats and became an instant standout due to his rock-solid play.

La El Collins had a pff grade overall of 82.0 76.2 pass blocking and wow 89.8 run blocking. 2 sacks. 8 penalties is his nemesis. In 2019 he graded as the 4th best tackle by PFF.

We’ve IMO really improved the run game. I don’t think some on here realize what a difference an outstanding run game will do for this offense. Mixon can take it to the house. If teams play man for man Mixon is going to have some huge runs. If they play zone if Burrow has time he’ll kill teams. I don’t think fans realize how our poor running has effected us in rhythm for the offense. This offense is going to top 5 in the NFL. The defense is going to be top 5 in third down stops. We are a much better team.

[3wt]

(05-12-2022, 09:52 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^

So true

It is amusing how so many fans just have to find a player or players to chastise. I agree we have OL that played poorly in 2021, but to write young OL off so early in the careers is ignorant in my opinion. Players get better with great coaching. I just wish some would learn from some of their past posts that are later proven wrong and not make same mistakes over an over again (not you of course).

Good post Luv.   What remains to be seen is whether the enormous potential combined with a great coach can overcome character issues.   Typically only a total absence of talent - or more commonly entrenched character flaws - will negate good coaching.   Hopefully Carman finds his growth potential and gets his heart around it.

[3wt]

(05-12-2022, 08:12 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You seem to be missing the bigger point of what I was trying to say.  Let me try to explain it a little better.  This roster has a lot of star power on in, star players all cost a lot of money.  In the NFL there is this thing called the salary cap that all teams must adhere to, in an effort to keep an even chance of success for all teams in the league.  It is impossible to have star players at every position on a team, it simply costs too much.

What the Bengals did, was seek out specific OL who's skills matched well with what they are wanting to accomplish, yet not cost so much that they can not afford to spend money on other areas of the team.  In my opinion, the Bengals did a fantastic job of retooling the OL, keeping the budget concerns in mind, as well as drafting to improve the team for future years.

Great post

[Soonerpeace]

(05-11-2022, 04:44 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: I wouldn't call anyone on our offensive line a star except La'el Collins who is a former pro bowler, Jonah Williams is above average and Karras and Cappa are solid but hardly stars.  I think any 1 really bad player can make an offensive line below average.  Just look at Eric Ghiacuic, Cedric Ogbuehi, and Adeniji for example and how much they impacted our offensive lines.  1 weak link can make the entire offensive line look bad even if everyone else is doing their job.

(05-12-2022, 08:12 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You seem to be missing the bigger point of what I was trying to say.  Let me try to explain it a little better.  This roster has a lot of star power on in, star players all cost a lot of money.  In the NFL there is this thing called the salary cap that all teams must adhere to, in an effort to keep an even chance of success for all teams in the league.  It is impossible to have star players at every position on a team, it simply costs too much.

What the Bengals did, was seek out specific OL who's skills matched well with what they are wanting to accomplish, yet not cost so much that they can not afford to spend money on other areas of the team.  In my opinion, the Bengals did a fantastic job of retooling the OL, keeping the budget concerns in mind, as well as drafting to improve the team for future years.

Cappa had 1182 snaps 1 penalty. 796 pass blocks (5 sacks) . "Alex Cappa is a solid starting right guard who has improved every year in NFL," Ledyard tweeted. "He also played through a broken arm and tried to stay in a game with a broken leg. Don't know how high the ceiling is bc he lacks great tools/athleticism. But great technique is his calling card... He's a tough, team-first guy with an ultra-physical mentality."

I’ll add he’s penalty free. He plays hurt. He’s 27. He has great technique. He played on a winning team. Team first guy. Sounds awfully good.

Karras had 2 penalties in 829 snaps and gave up 3 sacks out of 425 pass plays. Karras was low balled by the Pats and the Pats site said this: After leaving New England to join Miami in 2020, Karras quickly returned to the Pats and became an instant standout due to his rock-solid play.

La El Collins had a pff grade overall of 82.0 76.2 pass blocking and wow 89.8 run blocking. 2 sacks. 8 penalties is his nemesis. In 2019 he graded as the 4th best tackle by PFF.

We’ve IMO really improved the run game. I don’t think some on here realize what a difference an outstanding run game will do for this offense. Mixon can take it to the house. If teams play man for man Mixon is going to have some huge runs. If they play zone if Burrow has time he’ll kill teams. I don’t think fans realize how our poor running has effected us in rhythm for the offense. This offense is going to top 5 in the NFL. The defense is going to be top 5 in third down stops. We are a much better team.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-12-2022, 10:01 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: We’ve IMO really improved the run game. I don’t think some on here realize what a difference an outstanding run game will do for this offense. Mixon can take it to the house. If teams play man for man Mixon is going to have some huge runs. If they play zone if Burrow has time he’ll kill teams. I don’t think fans realize how our poor running has effected us in rhythm for the offense. This offense is going to top 5 in the NFL. The defense is going to be top 5 in third down stops. We are a much better team.

Exactly, being able to run the ball effectively not only forces a defense to be prepared to stop the run, but also makes pass protection a little easier on the OL because the defense isn't firing off in a full out pass rush every play.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-12-2022, 08:12 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You seem to be missing the bigger point of what I was trying to say.  Let me try to explain it a little better.  This roster has a lot of star power on in, star players all cost a lot of money.  In the NFL there is this thing called the salary cap that all teams must adhere to, in an effort to keep an even chance of success for all teams in the league.  It is impossible to have star players at every position on a team, it simply costs too much.

What the Bengals did, was seek out specific OL who's skills matched well with what they are wanting to accomplish, yet not cost so much that they can not afford to spend money on other areas of the team.  In my opinion, the Bengals did a fantastic job of retooling the OL, keeping the budget concerns in mind, as well as drafting to improve the team for future years.

Well said, no way we have stars all along the OL with all the stars we already have...

No team can afford that. We have added some damn good proven vets to the OL though which will make us much better.

(05-12-2022, 09:58 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Fred too many 1st round picks have started and busted in year one. My point is draft position is not relevant once a player is drafted, if our OL coach thinks he is better (not due to injury of other OL) than vets and starts it does not mean gloom and doom.

Some players are more NFL ready than others, maybe he is one of them so I would not immediately go to gloom and doom if a rookie 4th rround pick starts on the OL or 2nd round CB or 3rd round DL either. 

Truth, same with La'el Collins. Dude was extremely talented but was an UDFA.

Who knows how good Cordell Volson will become or Jackson Carman if his back is alright.

(05-12-2022, 10:01 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Cappa had 1182 snaps 1 penalty. 796 pass blocks (5 sacks) . "Alex Cappa is a solid starting right guard who has improved every year in NFL," Ledyard tweeted. "He also played through a broken arm and tried to stay in a game with a broken leg. Don't know how high the ceiling is bc he lacks great tools/athleticism. But great technique is his calling card... He's a tough, team-first guy with an ultra-physical mentality."

I’ll add he’s penalty free. He plays hurt. He’s 27. He has great technique. He played on a winning team. Team first guy. Sounds awfully good.

Karras had 2 penalties in 829 snaps and gave up 3 sacks out of 425 pass plays. Karras was low balled by the Pats and the Pats site said this: After leaving New England to join Miami in 2020, Karras quickly returned to the Pats and became an instant standout due to his rock-solid play.

La El Collins had a pff grade overall of 82.0 76.2 pass blocking and wow 89.8 run blocking. 2 sacks. 8 penalties is his nemesis. In 2019 he graded as the 4th best tackle by PFF.

We’ve IMO really improved the run game. I don’t think some on here realize what a difference an outstanding run game will do for this offense. Mixon can take it to the house. If teams play man for man Mixon is going to have some huge runs. If they play zone if Burrow has time he’ll kill teams. I don’t think fans realize how our poor running has effected us in rhythm for the offense. This offense is going to top 5 in the NFL. The defense is going to be top 5 in third down stops. We are a much better team.

Yes, all the OL we brought in are good pass blockers but are fantastic, mean, technically sound run blockers.

Our running game could be #1 in the NFL this season with these guys added. Already like Jonah, Carman and Volson's run 
blocking too. Glass eaters on down the line just like Pollack said he wanted.

(05-12-2022, 10:28 AM)3wt Wrote: Good post Luv.   What remains to be seen is whether the enormous potential combined with a great coach can overcome character issues.   Typically only a total absence of talent - or more commonly entrenched character flaws - will negate good coaching.   Hopefully Carman finds his growth potential and gets his heart around it.

What character issues are you talking about 3wt? La'el? He is the only one that has ever had them on this OL?

(05-12-2022, 12:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Exactly, being able to run the ball effectively not only forces a defense to be prepared to stop the run, but also makes pass protection a little easier on the OL because the defense isn't firing off in a full out pass rush every play.

Yep, Defenses are no longer going to be able and just stop the run and pin their ears back and get after Burrow like the
last couple years. They will have to respect the run game and with better pass protection we just don't know how good Joe
Burrow can be, I have no idea how good this Offense can be honestly. Cannot wait.

[Leon]

(05-11-2022, 12:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I like the Volson pick, but if we have a 4th round rookie starting on our O-line then we have problems.

trey smith was a 6th round pick and started all 17 games for the chiefs. how the dude actually performs is all that matters. what round he was drafted in doesn't mean shit if he plays well. we took a lazy, out of shape, unmotivated lineman in the 2nd round last year. how did that work out?

[wanga]

I’m as excited as hell to see what our new oline can do. Always awesome to watch Joe being Joe and Ja’Marr and our WR’s doing their stuff and Joe M running downhill but I’m most looking forward to some of new big nasties at work.
Plus our new DB’s fly around as well.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-12-2022, 04:37 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: trey smith was a 6th round pick and started all 17 games for the chiefs. how the dude actually performs is all that matters. what round he was drafted in doesn't mean shit if he plays well. we took a lazy, out of shape, unmotivated lineman in the 2nd round last year. how did that work out?

True on it doesn't matter where a guy is drafted if he plays well.

I don't care for the thoughts on Carman being unmotivated. He was hurt, that isn't on him for being drafted that early.

Maybe it is with the way they treated him in and after Training Camp. Jackson Carman is really talented.

THE BACK SURGERY IS THE ONLY REASON I HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PICK.

If his back is fine he could be a great OL in the NFL, GREAT.

[Essex Johnson]

(05-05-2022, 04:53 PM)Joelist Wrote: Here is the current OL room:

Tackles: Williams, Collins, Prince

Guards: Cappa, Carman, Smith, Adeniji, Volson

Centers: Karras, Hill, Galliard

Of this bunch, you have to remember that four were drafted over the last two offseasons (Smith, Carman, Hill, Volson). So yes we don't have a lot of experienced depth - we took that calculated risk last offseason when we emptied out the OL room of players like MJ and Redmond. So these players need time and reps to get coached up so we can see what we have - the bad news is they are raw (especially Hill) - the good news is all of them flashed at times some pretty above average stuff last year.

Really the only player here I am not crazy about keeping is Adeniji - he singlehandedly gave up nearly half our postseason sacks. A Guard MUST be able to anchor and he shows no ability to do so.

Galliard I think heads back to the PS. I still think we add either Spain or another vet G/T so we have experienced people coming off the bench.

I felt Carman regressed. not sure if it was his ability or coaching hurt him not helped him last year.. but he needs to improve quick if he is starter next year

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-12-2022, 09:41 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I felt Carman regressed. not sure if it was his ability or coaching hurt him not helped him last year.. but he needs to improve quick if he is starter next year

Regressed from what? He’s had 6 starts in the NFL. There’s barely a baseline.