Bengals are nowhere close to deals with Trey, Tee or Ja'Marr

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(Yesterday, 05:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I am guessing, but if Tee signs, I think Tee's cap hit in 2025 will drop from 26.2 million to no more than 15 million. I would lve an extra 11 million and have Tee signed as well.

Good point. Joe's restructure could add $19 mil, though the deals for Chase & Trey will take a big chunk out of that. 

[Luvnit2]

(Yesterday, 08:46 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Good point. Joe's restructure could add $19 mil, though the deals for Chase & Trey will take a big chunk out of that. 

I disagree. If we sign Tee, we gain in cap space in 2025. Same with Chase. Also gain with a Joe restructure.

That is the option the FO has is to push cap to future years. Prior to Gesicki signing, we had 223 million in cap space in 2026 so plenty of cap to absorb and push out of 2025.

[007BengalsFan]

(Yesterday, 12:30 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Because the Bengals are dead last in the league in cash paid to non-QB's...

That factoid is completely meaningless.  You want to discount the massive contract the Bengals gave Burrow when other teams arent paying their QB like the Bengals.  You cant pretend the Burrow contract doesnt exist when that is part of the overall amount of money the Bengals are spending on their players.  When you have a QB that takes so much of the pie, that leaves less for the rest of the team.  Of course other team can spend more money on non QBs when they arent paying their QB 55 million per year.  You also have to consider the Bengals have a bunch of guys on on their first contracts.  Once Chase, Higgins sign their extensions and the Bengals bring in free agents and/or re-sign Hendrickson, they wont be close to last even when you look at non QBs.  When you add the QB to total spending, they will be even higher.

[Nepa]

(Yesterday, 10:59 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: That factoid is completely meaningless.  You want to discount the massive contract the Bengals gave Burrow when other teams arent paying their QB like the Bengals.  You cant pretend the Burrow contract doesnt exist when that is part of the overall amount of money the Bengals are spending on their players.  When you have a QB that takes so much of the pie, that leaves less for the rest of the team.  Of course other team can spend more money on non QBs when they arent paying their QB 55 million per year.  You also have to consider the Bengals have a bunch of guys on on their first contracts.  Once Chase, Higgins sign their extensions and the Bengals bring in free agents and/or re-sign Hendrickson, they wont be close to last even when you look at non QBs.  When you add the QB to total spending, they will be even higher.

The chart that Isaac Curtis is likely referencing is the one publicized by Goodberry (from Reinhard) that shows that even with Burrow the Bengals were 7th from the bottom in terms of money committed to players overall. And some of those teams below the Bengals, such as Pittsburgh, did not even have a QB as part of their numbers. But it probably is irrelevant, as you note, as this will change soon with contracts to Chase, Higgins, and Hendrickson (fingers crossed).

Goodberry's point was that the Bengals have plenty of money to spend on players.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2025/2/18/24367819/bengals-on-the-hook-for-7th-lowest-amount-of-cash-in-nfl#:~:text=The%20Bengals%20have%20the%20seventh,that%20aren't%20the%20QB.

[007BengalsFan]

(Yesterday, 10:01 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I disagree. If we sign Tee, we gain in cap space in 2025. Same with Chase. Also gain with a Joe restructure.

That is the option the FO has is to push cap to future years. Prior to Gesicki signing, we had 223 million in cap space in 2026 so plenty of cap to absorb and push out of 2025.

Where are you getting your cap numbers from?  The Bengals have roughly 130 million in cap space allocated in 2026.  This is low because the Bengals currently only have about 28 guys signed beyond the 2025 season.  If the salary cap increases another 25-30 million in 2026 like it has the last couple of years, the salary cap for 2026 would be about 310 million giving the Bengals free cap space of about 180 million.  If Tee's contract averages 30 million a year and Chase's averages 40 million a year and Hendrickson's averages 30 million a year, that is 100 million off the 180 million cap space for next year.  This leaves roughly 80 million the Bengals would have to replace about 30 guys.  You cant push out too much of Tee and Chase's money to 2026 because there isnt going to be a lot of cash available considering the number of guys the Bengals will have to replace. 

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(Yesterday, 10:01 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I disagree. If we sign Tee, we gain in cap space in 2025. Same with Chase. Also gain with a Joe restructure.

That is the option the FO has is to push cap to future years. Prior to Gesicki signing, we had 223 million in cap space in 2026 so plenty of cap to absorb and push out of 2025.

You can disagree all you want, but I do believe you are dead wrong. But a contract guru should weigh in. I don't want to be spreading bad info. 

Here is the difference: Tee is going from a tag to an new deal. Chase & Trey are playing on existing contracts, at well below what their new deals will be, and are signing extensions. 

In Tee's case, the "extension" replaces the tag number. The tag isn't a contract. The only reason we call it an extension now is because the new year has not kicked in and he technically isn't a FA yet. But it is essentially a new contract. On that new deal, a big part will be the signing bonus, which will get pro-rated over the length of the contract. As a consequence, his cap hit will be lower than it would be under the tag. You are 100% correct on Tee. 

But for Chase & Trey, no. They are playing under existing contracts. Those do not go away if they sign an extension, which won't kick in until 2026. Except for the signing bonuses, which will get pro-rated over the life of the new extension AND this year. That will have the effect of lowering the cap hit relative to the APY salary over the life of the contract (2026 on), but it will RAISE their cap number this year, as their number would be their existing contract PLUS whatever part of their new deal gets pro-rated to this year. 

The only way what you are suggesting could happen is if they rip up their current deals and essentially give them new contracts starting this year instead. 

Even so, I STILL doubt their cap hit would go down, because they are signed for WELL below what their new deals would average APY. Take Trey, his deal is for like $18.9 cap hit. We are offering $32 mil per year. Even with reducing the APY by $10 mil per via pro-rating the signing bonus, he'd still come in at $22 per. Chase is the same thing. He is at  what, $21.7? His APY is gonna be north of $35 mil. I doubt they can cut that by $14 mil year 1. 

But a real contract person needs to weigh in. But that is my understanding. If my understanding is flawed, someone needs to let me know. 

And on last thing, ripping up the final year of Trey & Chase's deals is awful dumb from a Bengals perspective, in terms of cap management. Keeping it gives you an extra year in which to pro-rate the signing bonus. Say, Chase gets a 4 year deal with a $50 mil signing bonus. Currently, you could spread thatbout at $10 mil per year (4 + this one). If you rip it up, you are looking at $12.5 per year. 50 divided by 4 instead of 5. 

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(Yesterday, 11:10 PM)Nepa Wrote: The chart that Isaac Curtis is likely referencing is the one publicized by Goodberry (from Reinhard) that shows that even with Burrow the Bengals were 7th from the bottom in terms of money committed to players overall. And some of those teams below the Bengals, such as Pittsburgh, did not even have a QB as part of their numbers. But it probably is irrelevant, as you note, as this will change soon with contracts to Chase, Higgins, and Hendrickson (fingers crossed).

Goodberry's point was that the Bengals have plenty of money to spend on players.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2025/2/18/24367819/bengals-on-the-hook-for-7th-lowest-amount-of-cash-in-nfl#:~:text=The%20Bengals%20have%20the%20seventh,that%20aren't%20the%20QB.

And mine.

[NUGDUKWE]

(Yesterday, 11:56 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: You can disagree all you want, but I do believe you are dead wrong. But a contract guru should weigh in. I don't want to be spreading bad info. 

Here is the difference: Tee is going from a tag to an new deal. Chase & Trey are playing on existing contracts, at well below what their new deals will be, and are signing extensions. 

In Tee's case, the "extension" replaces the tag number. The tag isn't a contract. The only reason we call it an extension now is because the new year has not kicked in and he technically isn't a FA yet. But it is essentially a new contract. On that new deal, a big part will be the signing bonus, which will get pro-rated over the length of the contract. As a consequence, his cap hit will be lower than it would be under the tag. You are 100% correct on Tee. 

But for Chase & Trey, no. They are playing under existing contracts. Those do not go away if they sign an extension, which won't kick in until 2026. Except for the signing bonuses, which will get pro-rated over the life of the new extension AND this year. That will have the effect of lowering the cap hit relative to the APY salary over the life of the contract (2026 on), but it will RAISE their cap number this year, as their number would be their existing contract PLUS whatever part of their new deal gets pro-rated to this year. 

The only way what you are suggesting could happen is if they rip up their current deals and essentially give them new contracts starting this year instead. 

Even so, I STILL doubt their cap hit would go down, because they are signed for WELL below what their new deals would average APY. Take Trey, his deal is for like $18.9 cap hit. We are offering $32 mil per year. Even with reducing the APY by $10 mil per via pro-rating the signing bonus, he'd still come in at $22 per. Chase is the same thing. He is at  what, $21.7? His APY is gonna be north of $35 mil. I doubt they can cut that by $14 mil year 1. 

But a real contract person needs to weigh in. But that is my understanding. If my understanding is flawed, someone needs to let me know. 

And on last thing, ripping up the final year of Trey & Chase's deals is awful dumb from a Bengals perspective, in terms of cap management. Keeping it gives you an extra year in which to pro-rate the signing bonus. Say, Chase gets a 4 year deal with a $50 mil signing bonus. Currently, you could spread thatbout at $10 mil per year (4 + this one). If you rip it up, you are looking at $12.5 per year. 50 divided by 4 instead of 5. 

I probably shouldn't chime in because I'm certainly not a cap wizard and I am interested to see if someone breaks it down. But judging by the people that cover the Bengals he is correct. Goodberry is projecting Chase's cap hit to be about 10 mil in 2025. He knows how the Bengals do contracts so I doubt he's being unrealistic. Also he's just an example all the people I've seen expect they cap hits to lower with the exception of trey potentially. 

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(Today, 12:34 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I probably shouldn't chime in because I'm certainly not a cap wizard and I am interested to see if someone breaks it down. But judging by the people that cover the Bengals he is correct. Goodberry is projecting Chase's cap hit to be about 10 mil in 2025. He knows how the Bengals do contracts so I doubt he's being unrealistic. Also he's just an example all the people I've seen expect they cap hits to lower with the exception of trey potentially. 

If so I stand corrected. I looks like for Chase, yes. Trey, no. Apologies. 

Here it is: 

https://thenoise.com/bengals/bengals-insider-perfectly-breaks-down-how-team-can-keep-chase-higgins-hendrickson-and-still-have-money/

All we have to do is guarantee $$ into future years. Though if we are willing to take a bigger hit in 2025, the hit will be lower in going forward. 

[007BengalsFan]

(Today, 12:34 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I probably shouldn't chime in because I'm certainly not a cap wizard and I am interested to see if someone breaks it down. But judging by the people that cover the Bengals he is correct. Goodberry is projecting Chase's cap hit to be about 10 mil in 2025. He knows how the Bengals do contracts so I doubt he's being unrealistic. Also he's just an example all the people I've seen expect they cap hits to lower with the exception of trey potentially. 

Im not a cap wizard but I can tell you if you dont use much cap space this year, it will cost you more in other years.  There is no way around this.  Its like making the minimum payment on your credit card.  You can pay a very low amount now but next time payment comes due you are going to owe even more money.  If you pay the minimum amount next time, the bill is going to be even greater the time after that.  At some point you pay the piper.  You can use void years but all that does is take a piece of the pie now and then you also take part of someone else pie.

[reuben.ahmed]

who in here is the cap wizard

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(Today, 01:35 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: If so I stand corrected. I looks like for Chase, yes. Trey, no. Apologies. 

Here it is: 

https://thenoise.com/bengals/bengals-insider-perfectly-breaks-down-how-team-can-keep-chase-higgins-hendrickson-and-still-have-money/

All we have to do is guarantee $$ into future years. Though if we are willing to take a bigger hit in 2025, the hit will be lower in going forward. 

Skimmed through it... It's a whole lot easier to make it work when everyone signs for less than market value in your theoretical.

In that video he has...
Tee for $25m/yr
Trey for $27.5m/yr
Chase for $35m/yr
....That's about $13m/yr short of reality.

Also noticed with the Chase extension, the cap hits over the 5 years (and 1 void year) he provided for his scenario only add up to be $140m "like the Jefferson deal" which means he forgot the original $21.8m he's owed in 2025 for his 5th year option and spread it out as if 2025 was $0. If you look at the Jefferson's cap hits they add up to almost $160m because of his $19.743m 5th year option that the 4yr/$140m deal was added onto.... so even if Chase accepted only 4yr/$140m for an extension, his numbers provided are still too low.

He also has Tee, Trey (who accepts a 2 year extension instead of 3), and Chase all accepting a lack of guaranteed money on the back end.... 
-Chase's final two years he has $68m of entirely un-guaranteed base salary which is one more unprotected year than Jefferson got.
-Trey has zero guaranteed salary after Year 1. 
-Tee has zero guaranteed salary after Year 1.

- - - - - - - -

So yes, if we get them all to take less than they want, and give them less guarantees on base salary that we heavily backload and leave unprotected, and in at least one players' case give him one less year than he wants, and erase the cap hit from Chase's 2025 season.... then yes, it's super easy. Thanks Goodberry!

[Nicomo Cosca]

(Today, 02:32 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: who in here is the cap wizard

This dude is really good wrt cap stuff.

https://x.com/andreperrotta13?s=21&t=LbTlicr2R-wpEQlojJz9Sg

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(Today, 02:44 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Skimmed through it... It's a whole lot easier to make it work when everyone signs for less than market value in your theoretical.

In that video he has...
Tee for $25m/yr
Trey for $27.5m/yr
Chase for $35m/yr
....That's about $13m/yr short of reality.

Also noticed with the Chase extension, the cap hits over the 5 years (and 1 void year) he provided for his scenario only add up to be $140m "like the Jefferson deal" which means he forgot the original $21.8m he's owed in 2025 for his 5th year option and spread it out as if 2025 was $0. If you look at the Jefferson's cap hits they add up to almost $160m because of his $19.743m 5th year option that the 4yr/$140m deal was added onto.... so even if Chase accepted only 4yr/$140m for an extension, his numbers provided are still too low.

He also has Tee, Trey (who accepts a 2 year extension instead of 3), and Chase all accepting a lack of guaranteed money on the back end.... 
-Chase's final two years he has $68m of entirely un-guaranteed base salary which is one more unprotected year than Jefferson got.
-Trey has zero guaranteed salary after Year 1. 
-Tee has zero guaranteed salary after Year 1.

- - - - - - - -

So yes, if we get them all to take less than they want, and give them less guarantees on base salary that we heavily backload and leave unprotected, and in at least one players' case give him one less year than he wants, and erase the cap hit from Chase's 2025 season.... then yes, it's super easy. Thanks Goodberry!

Thank you. This makes me feel better.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Still, I think Goodberry is overly optimistic on his contract forecasts AND guaranteed money. Too low on both.

AND, as Leonard Leap points out, he did it wrong on Chase and forgot to allocate his $21 mil back into the equation.

Still, the Jefferson comp is a good one. His 5th year option was $19.7 mil, just $2 mil under Chase's.

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/05/2024-nfl-fifth-year-option-tracker

It was exercised in 2023, so he was scheduled to make $19.7 in his 5th year option year. He signed an extension that summer and his cap hit for 2024 was $8.6 mil instead. And only $15.1 the year after. Ballooning to $39, $43.5, and $47.5 in the meat of the deal. $6 in the void year.

https://overthecap.com/player/justin-jefferson/8762

Chase's will be more. But despite Goidberry's errors and my reservations, the original point still stands. If we sign Chase to an extension (structured properly), his cap hit could decline significantly this year (and next). 

Luvnit2 is correct and I am/was dead wrong. 

Thanks for the correction Luvnit2! Much appreciated!

[Luvnit2]

(Yesterday, 11:56 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: You can disagree all you want, but I do believe you are dead wrong. But a contract guru should weigh in. I don't want to be spreading bad info. 

Here is the difference: Tee is going from a tag to an new deal. Chase & Trey are playing on existing contracts, at well below what their new deals will be, and are signing extensions. 

In Tee's case, the "extension" replaces the tag number. The tag isn't a contract. The only reason we call it an extension now is because the new year has not kicked in and he technically isn't a FA yet. But it is essentially a new contract. On that new deal, a big part will be the signing bonus, which will get pro-rated over the length of the contract. As a consequence, his cap hit will be lower than it would be under the tag. You are 100% correct on Tee. 

But for Chase & Trey, no. They are playing under existing contracts. Those do not go away if they sign an extension, which won't kick in until 2026. Except for the signing bonuses, which will get pro-rated over the life of the new extension AND this year. That will have the effect of lowering the cap hit relative to the APY salary over the life of the contract (2026 on), but it will RAISE their cap number this year, as their number would be their existing contract PLUS whatever part of their new deal gets pro-rated to this year. 

The only way what you are suggesting could happen is if they rip up their current deals and essentially give them new contracts starting this year instead. 

Even so, I STILL doubt their cap hit would go down, because they are signed for WELL below what their new deals would average APY. Take Trey, his deal is for like $18.9 cap hit. We are offering $32 mil per year. Even with reducing the APY by $10 mil per via pro-rating the signing bonus, he'd still come in at $22 per. Chase is the same thing. He is at  what, $21.7? His APY is gonna be north of $35 mil. I doubt they can cut that by $14 mil year 1. 

But a real contract person needs to weigh in. But that is my understanding. If my understanding is flawed, someone needs to let me know. 

And on last thing, ripping up the final year of Trey & Chase's deals is awful dumb from a Bengals perspective, in terms of cap management. Keeping it gives you an extra year in which to pro-rate the signing bonus. Say, Chase gets a 4 year deal with a $50 mil signing bonus. Currently, you could spread thatbout at $10 mil per year (4 + this one). If you rip it up, you are looking at $12.5 per year. 50 divided by 4 instead of 5. 

Bengals have the option on how they allocate the signing bonus. They DO NO HAVE TO ASSIGN ANY TO 2025 IF THEY DO NOT WANT TO THUS PUSHING THE CAP BONUS TO FUTURE YEARS.

If they give Tee a 30 million signing bonus, they could nt allocate a penny of it to 2025. That is why the cap hit could be a lot less in 2025. It is the same reason Jefferson had a low cap hit after signing a massive contract.

[*pally*]

FWIW...Ja'Marr is definitely in Cincinnati and Tee reportedly flew in yesterday

[Luvnit2]

(Yesterday, 11:47 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Where are you getting your cap numbers from?  The Bengals have roughly 130 million in cap space allocated in 2026.  This is low because the Bengals currently only have about 28 guys signed beyond the 2025 season.  If the salary cap increases another 25-30 million in 2026 like it has the last couple of years, the salary cap for 2026 would be about 310 million giving the Bengals free cap space of about 180 million.  If Tee's contract averages 30 million a year and Chase's averages 40 million a year and Hendrickson's averages 30 million a year, that is 100 million off the 180 million cap space for next year.  This leaves roughly 80 million the Bengals would have to replace about 30 guys.  You cant push out too much of Tee and Chase's money to 2026 because there isnt going to be a lot of cash available considering the number of guys the Bengals will have to replace. 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/cap/_/year/2026

They have 231 million per Spotrac in 2026. No Tee, No Chase and and Trey in calculation.

[Luvnit2]

(8 hours ago)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Still, I think Goodberry is overly optimistic on his contract forecasts AND guaranteed money. Too low on both.

AND, as Leonard Leap points out, he did it wrong on Chase and forgot to allocate his $21 mil back into the equation.

Still, the Jefferson comp is a good one. His 5th year option was $19.7 mil, just $2 mil under Chase's.

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/05/2024-nfl-fifth-year-option-tracker

It was exercised in 2023, so he was scheduled to make $19.7 in his 5th year option year. He signed an extension that summer and his cap hit for 2024 was $8.6 mil instead. And only $15.1 the year after. Ballooning to $39, $43.5, and $47.5 in the meat of the deal. $6 in the void year.

https://overthecap.com/player/justin-jefferson/8762

Chase's will be more. But despite Goidberry's errors and my reservations, the original point still stands. If we sign Chase to an extension (structured properly), his cap hit could decline significantly this year (and next). 

Luvnit2 is correct and I am/was dead wrong. 

Thanks for the correction Luvnit2! Much appreciated!

No problem, we all want the same thing. I am no expert either.

[Luvnit2]

(7 hours ago)pally Wrote: FWIW...Ja'Marr is definitely in Cincinnati and Tee reportedly flew in yesterday

I hope Tee is in town. I am just concerned because these click bait tweets seem to hit every year in free agency and are false.