Confronting Racism

[*bfine32*]

I'll read the article later; however, wanted to give my input to slavery as mentioned in the NT.

You could almost view it as working for your boss today. Often times folks volunteered to be slaves simply to be taken care of. There were those that perhaps could not care for their child so they sold them into slavery. I think folks are trying to equate this to the North American practice of bringing slaves over in death ships against their will.

[Belsnickel]

(02-05-2016, 07:10 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-19 (the one I already said)

it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void. - Luke 16:17

Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law. - John 7:19

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Romans 2:12-13

And yet not one of those contradicts my position when you look at it through antinomian. It's like you just ignored what I said and continued on thinking it wouldn't be noticed.

[*bfine32*]

(02-05-2016, 08:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll read the article later;

Well that was a waste of about 10 minutes. 

I think the author is demonstrating white guilt, not white privilege. She also seems quite judgmental for a Christian and the analogy at the beginning of the story is almost too "convenient" to believe. I hope she wasn't embellishing. 

[Brownshoe]

(02-05-2016, 08:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: And yet not one of those contradicts my position when you look at it through antinomian. It's like you just ignored what I said and continued on thinking it wouldn't be noticed.

and yet there's nothing in the bible that backs up antinomian. Fulfilling a law doesn't mean that you don't have to go by them anymore especially when Jesus himself said that nothing will be changed from the OT. Fulfilling them would only be talking about not having to sacrifice things anymore.

[Brownshoe]

(02-05-2016, 08:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll read the article later; however, wanted to give my input to slavery as mentioned in the NT.

You could almost view it as working for your boss today. Often times folks volunteered to be slaves simply to be taken care of. There were those that perhaps could not care for their child so they sold them into slavery. I think folks are trying to equate this to the North American practice of bringing slaves over in death ships against their will.

except that your boss would be able to beat you to death as long as you die a few days after he beat you.

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money. Exodus 21:20-21

[*bfine32*]

(02-05-2016, 08:40 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: except that your boss would be able to beat you to death as long as you die a few days after he beat you.

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money. Exodus 21:20-21

I think perhaps you are mis-interpreting the verse. 

In it's simplest form it is saying if you beat the slave and he/she dies as a result (no time limit set) the owner shall be punished.  However, if the slave doesn't did, but is laid up (surviving/ no mention of dying) for a day or two the owner will not be punished as loss of work is its own punishment.

[Brownshoe]

(02-05-2016, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think perhaps you are mis-interpreting the verse. 

In it's simplest form it is saying if you beat the slave and he/she dies as a result (no time limit set) the owner shall be punished.  However, if the slave doesn't did, but is laid up (surviving/ no mention of dying) for a day or two the owner will not be punished as loss of work is its own punishment.

If you only survive two days doesn't mean that you died after two days? It still heavily implies its 100% fine to beat your slaves though.

edit - It doesn't imply that you can beat your slave. It straight out says it.

[*bfine32*]

(02-05-2016, 09:06 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: If you only survive two days doesn't mean that you died after two days? It still heavily implies its 100% fine to beat your slaves though.

Once again that depends on how you understand the translation. For instance the Common English Bible (CEB) translation of Exodus 21:21:

21 But if the slave gets up after a day or two, the slave owner shouldn’t be punished because the slave is the owner’s property.


As to 100% to beat your slaves once again there is really nothing that points to that. It simply is establishing the laws of man. God is basically telling man if the slave dies then you (man) punish him, if the slave does not die then you (man) do not punish him,  because he has punished himself.


Nowhere does it mention that God says it is 100% fine to beat your slave,

[Brownshoe]

(02-05-2016, 09:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Once again that depends on how you understand the translation. For instance the Common English Bible (CEB) translation of Exodus 21:21:

21 But if the slave gets up after a day or two, the slave owner shouldn’t be punished because the slave is the owner’s property.


As to 100% to beat your slaves once again there is really nothing that points to that. It simply is establishing the laws of man. God is basically telling man if the slave dies then you (man) punish him, if the slave does not die then you (man) do not punish him,  because he has punished himself.


Nowhere does it mention that God says it is 100% fine to beat your slave,

But it says don't punish him if he survives a two days and then dies. If it wasn't fine to beat your slave then God would have said not to beat your slave at all instead of just not killing him.

[Belsnickel]

(02-05-2016, 08:34 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: and yet there's nothing in the bible that backs up antinomian. Fulfilling a law doesn't mean that you don't have to go by them anymore especially when Jesus himself said that nothing will be changed from the OT. Fulfilling them would only be talking about not having to sacrifice things anymore.

Antinomian does not say anything changes with the law. It says that it is fulfilled through Jesus. But this is the third time I have pointed this out and you continue to ignore it. So at this point I feel it is a waste of time that I no longer care to indulge in.

[Benton]

(02-05-2016, 09:19 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: But it says don't punish him if he survives a two days and then dies. If it wasn't fine to beat your slave then God would have said not to beat your slave at all instead of just not killing him.

eh, that's a weird set of Jewish laws you're leaning on. That part of exodus sets out customary laws for Hebrews buying Hebrews. It's not so much god saying everybody should have slaves. There's also parts in there about if you knock out a tooth, the slave goes free and you can't sell off his kids to foreigners.

it's ot, and not really relevant to much anyway.

[*bfine32*]

(02-05-2016, 09:19 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: But it says don't punish him if he survives a two days and then dies. If it wasn't fine to beat your slave then God would have said not to beat your slave at all instead of just not killing him.

...and there's a very good chance that it was OK to beat your slave to death; however, God established boundaries. 

He is saying you may discipline your slave (someone who has voluntarily become your property); if you kill him, you will be punished, if you do not kill him you are only hurting yourself. Although it sounds barbaric 4,000 years later; it was the law of man back then, God just tried to help them see the light.

You keep adding that the second option (surviving) results in the slave's death and that it not what it is saying. Why would the wording "survives" be used; why would it say if he dies in a day or 2? 

[Brownshoe]

(02-05-2016, 09:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Antinomian does not say anything changes with the law. It says that it is fulfilled through Jesus. But this is the third time I have pointed this out and you continue to ignore it. So at this point I feel it is a waste of time that I no longer care to indulge in.

Like I said Antinomian isn't supported by the bible. That's what you keep ignoring. Fulfilling a law doesn't mean abolishing it, and it doesn't mean that it's irrelevant, or that it's discarded. The verses that I quoted earlier shows that Antinomian isn't supported by the bible. You have provided nothing to show that Antinomian is supported by the bible, other than the claim that it is.

[Brownshoe]

(02-05-2016, 09:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ...and there's a very good chance that it was OK to beat your slave to death; however, God established boundaries. 

He is saying you may discipline your slave (someone who has voluntarily become your property); if you kill him, you will be punished, if you do not kill him you are only hurting yourself. Although it sounds barbaric 4,000 years later; it was the law of man back then, God just tried to help them see the light.

You keep adding that the second option (surviving) results in the slave's death and that it not what it is saying. Why would the wording "survives" be used; why would it say if he dies in a day or 2? 

Slaves were not always voluntary.

By the exact wording of that verse there is no punishment if you beat your slave and he dies a few days later, because he is your property.

[Belsnickel]

(02-05-2016, 10:33 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Like I said Antinomian isn't supported by the bible. That's what you keep ignoring. Fulfilling a law doesn't mean abolishing it, and it doesn't mean that it's irrelevant, or that it's discarded. The verses that I quoted earlier shows that Antinomian isn't supported by the bible. You have provided nothing to show that Antinomian is supported by the bible, other than the claim that it is.

It is supported in the Bible, the issue is that you don't understand what it is. This post alone shows that. Not one time did I say it discarded, abolished, changed, made irrelevant, or discarded the law, because that is not what antinomian is stating. You're arguing against something you don't seem to understand.

[Brownshoe]

(02-05-2016, 11:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It is supported in the Bible, the issue is that you don't understand what it is. This post alone shows that. Not one time did I say it discarded, abolished, changed, made irrelevant, or discarded the law, because that is not what antinomian is stating. You're arguing against something you don't seem to understand.

Where is it supported then. You still have yet to show one line that supports it. If it's not discarded, abolished, changed, or made irrelevant then it's very much still active. Once a law is fulfilled doesn't mean that you stop practicing it.

[*bfine32*]

(02-05-2016, 11:08 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Where is it supported then. You still have yet to show one line that supports it. If it's not discarded, abolished, changed, or made irrelevant then it's very much still active. Once a law is fulfilled doesn't mean that you stop practicing it.

Romans 8

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I know that no one will read this because it is very long and very detailed.

http://www.christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

[Brownshoe]

(02-05-2016, 11:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Romans 8

The only way you can see romans 8 as supporting antinomian is if you read it without reading romans 7. Romans 7 says the law of sin (and death) is human nature. That is what Jesus is freeing you from. Not Gods law which was also mentioned in romans 7.

[NATI BENGALS]

(02-05-2016, 08:40 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: except that your boss would be able to beat you to death as long as you die a few days after he beat you.

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money. Exodus 21:20-21

Yikes. Blows my mind people live their life according to this book. I wonder where mankind would be if we were not held back by religion.