Dept Of Education: We're Done Being Involved With Transgender Students And Bathroom

[fredtoast]

(02-14-2018, 07:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I’m not forcing anyone to accept my religious beliefs nor do I expect anyone to acknowledge the existence of God.    

That is the difference between the two.

You claim that businesses should be allowed to discriminate based on religious beliefs.

Endorsing discrimination is the highest level of "forcing acceptance" of religious beliefs.

[*bfine32*]

(02-14-2018, 07:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: As for this bathroom thing, it's yet another way something that makes people socially uncomfortable is label "dangerous" in order to vilify it.  You don't get as much support saying trans people in the "wrong" bathroom is weird as you do saying trans people in the "wrong" bathroom is dangerous...dangerous to girls and women.  Wait, do we care about girls and women being sexually assaulted now?  I can never keep track of how important that sort of thing is to the right-wing.

I agree with your assertion that folks will label something as dangerous in order to vilify it simply because they disagree with  it. As one member in this thread has already done and the other poster did in the link to the thread I provided.

As I've always said: It comes down to "comfort" and which side to you support.

A) Do you support the notion that folks should be comfortable in knowing they are using facilities that only those of their sex can use.

B) Do you support the notion that folks should be able to use facilities opposite their sex so they can feel comfortable.

The "danger" is going to happen regardless, luckily we have laws against assault.

Personally, I don't care who uses the toilet beside me as long as they courtesy flush, but I'm not King.

[*Nately120*]

(02-14-2018, 07:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Personally, I don't care who uses the toilet beside me as long as they courtesy flush, but I'm not King.

Don't you force your stank-related standards down my throat!

[*bfine32*]

(02-14-2018, 07:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Don't you force your stank-related standards down my throat!

that wasn't my stank-related standards. 

[StLucieBengal]

(02-14-2018, 07:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You claim that businesses should be allowed to discriminate based on religious beliefs.

Endorsing discrimination is the highest level of "forcing acceptance" of religious beliefs.

Are you going to stick to a topic or jump around?

[fredtoast]

(02-14-2018, 08:15 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Are you going to stick to a topic or jump around?

Staying on topic.  Responding to your post from page 1.

(02-14-2018, 11:45 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Everyone is being respected.   Part of respecting everyone is to keep your own weird stuff at bay.

Just because you believe in talking snakes and flying magical beings does not mean you have the right to discriminate against those who do not.  Just bake the wedding cake and keep your own weird stuff at bay.

[Rotobeast]

Is this the movie "Groundhog Day" ?
It's still 2016, right ?

Regardless, I completely agree with Fred (I said that with a totally unchurned stomach) about the school restrooms/locker rooms.
Apart from that, construction of any new bathrooms should all be individual water closets with a communal hand washing area. No placards, just toilets with locking doors and occupied notifiers.

I went out of my way to friend some transgender folks on Facebook. Good people and they don't play the victim card, even though things are difficult for them. Their lives were torture, trying to live up to societal standards. Several of them nearly took their own lives, before giving in to just being what they felt they were. FWIW, I've never seen them even correct a misuse of a pronoun. If I seen someone accosting one of them, I'd knock out the aggressor.
I understand the concern over the bathroom ordeal, but I now understand the struggle of the people I had no previous affiliation with. Just treat everyone the same and use your normal judgement. If someone acts suspicious, be careful. If someone's acting aggressive, be prepared. But if someone's not making eye contact and just doing their business, maybe just don't concern yourself.

Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk

[Benton]

I would ask everyone to stay on topic and tone down inflammatory posts. If everyone wants to have a discussion on transgenderism, go for it. You don't have to get along, but if you're just going to try and poke each other, get a room.

[BmorePat87]

(02-14-2018, 09:59 PM)Benton Wrote: I would ask everyone to stay on topic and tone down inflammatory posts. If everyone wants to have a discussion on transgenderism, go for it. You don't have to get along, but if you're just going to try and poke each other, get a room.

To be fair, intentionally inflammatory posts regarding trans people are allowed because they don't specifically target members on this board. 

Constantly seeing "pervert", "weirdo", "sick", "mentally ill", "make believe" thrown in for just the sake of being intentionally inflammatory instantly sets these threads up to be shit shows. Hell, the most frequent offender has even said they want to secretly photograph a trans person who works at their local grocery store to share on here so we can mock them. What does that do to help dialogue? 

I haven't before, but I could play the family card as others have done. I don't think it's productive and I've never wanted anyone to think the only reason I care about treating people with dignity is because of my family, but if it prevents these shit shows, maybe it's worth it. 

[BFritz21]

Ok, so you think a man should be able to use a women's bathroom if he identifies as a female?

If a 20-year-old man or a 50-year-old man identifies as a female but also has Age Regression where he identifies as a young girl, you think he should be able to change in a bathroom that is designated for young girls because that's what he identifies as?

If so, where does it end? Should he be able to attend a grade school and change for gym in the locker room with them or use the restroom because that's how he identifies?

What's the difference?

[BmorePat87]

1. The second thread is about this issue, so you could have posted this there

2. Where have you been where there were age designated bathrooms?

[*bfine32*]

(02-15-2018, 12:00 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Ok, so you think a man should be able to use a women's bathroom if he identifies as a female?

If a 20-year-old man or a 50-year-old man identifies as a female but also has Age Regression where he identifies as a young girl, you think he should be able to change in a bathroom that is designated for young girls because that's what he identifies as?

If so, where does it end?  Should he be able to attend a grade school and change for gym in the locker room with them or use the restroom because that's how he identifies?

What's the difference?

There's been a number of threads in this forum (most got shutdown because folks got heated) about this very subject. It is a difficult subject and one, in which, neither side will be totally satisfied. But throwing in modifications such as "Age Regression" do nothing to add to a constructive debate on the matter.

My position has remained unchanged: You have an outtie, you the boys facilities, you have an innie, you use the girls facilities. No one is discriminated against. The best answer, IMO, is a 3rd gender neutral facility. I recall during the Obama admin this not being a reasonable accommodation, but perhaps the current one will. Also, I don't think we should live in fear of things that have not happened. 

[BFritz21]

(02-15-2018, 12:22 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: 1. The second thread is about this issue, so you could have posted this there

2. Where have you been where there were age designated bathrooms?

1.  I didn't see it.

2.  Not specifically age designated, but places like a little kid's playground or a play center.  What about a pool or water park specifically for kids?

[BmorePat87]

(02-15-2018, 12:27 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: 1.  I didn't see it.

2.  Not specifically age designated, but places like a little kid's playground or a play center.  What about a pool or water park specifically for kids?

If the bathrooms are open to anyone of any age (which they are) and they have kids, I don't see the problem. If they don't have kids, I'd question their intentions just as I would for anyone of any identity, religion, race, or orientation, and most people do when they see adults alone in places where you usually only go with children. 

I'm not sure why this is a question. Do you wonder this about anyone who creeps around kids?

[BmorePat87]

As for the age regression, it's a non comparison. Gender is a social construct. It is a set of characteristics and traits that societies associate with being a man or a woman. Sex is biological. Besides those few intersex individuals, everyone is born male or female without society's input. A trans man is still biologically female.

While our dates and unit of time measurements were created by society, the concept of age being a set number determined by something that can be physically measured is concrete. A year is roughly one rotation of the Earth around the Sun. So I've I have been on this Earth for 30 rotations, I am 30 years old. I can act like I am 5, but I am 30. Next year I will be 31.

[BFritz21]

(02-15-2018, 12:31 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: If the bathrooms are open to anyone of any age (which they are) and they have kids, I don't see the problem. If they don't have kids, I'd question their intentions just as I would for anyone of any identity, religion, race, or orientation, and most people do when they see adults alone in places where you usually only go with children. 

I'm not sure why this is a question. Do you wonder this about anyone who creeps around kids?

They'd be there because they identify as someone that age.

How many parents are always with their kids if they go somewhere like an arcade or Chuck-E-Cheese and say "I'm going to the bathroom quick"?  Say it's a dad with a daughter and he's obviously not going into the bathroom.  She goes in, and there's a grown man who thinks he's a toddler and thinks it's ok to be naked.

Oooooooh, that's another thing: nobody has a problem when a baby is naked in public, so it would be ok for a grown man to be completely naked in public because he identifies as a toddler?

[BmorePat87]

(02-15-2018, 12:46 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: They'd be there because they identify as someone that age.

How many parents are always with their kids if they go somewhere like an arcade or Chuck-E-Cheese and say "I'm going to the bathroom quick"?  Say it's a dad with a daughter and he's obviously not going into the bathroom.  She goes in, and there's a grown man who thinks he's a toddler and thinks it's ok to be naked.

Oooooooh, that's another thing: nobody has a problem when a baby is naked in public, so it would be ok for a grown man to be completely naked in public because he identifies as a toddler?

Their belief that they're a child doesn't change the fact that they'd be a grown adult alone at a place you take your children, meaning they'd be under the same scrutiny as anyone else who would go there.

So id refer you back to my response.

With regards to being naked, that's currently illegal and would still be illegal with trans protection laws. Trans people aren't the only ones who can be predators.

[BFritz21]

(02-15-2018, 01:15 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Their belief that they're a child doesn't change the fact that they'd be a grown adult alone at a place you take your children, meaning they'd be under the same scrutiny as anyone else who would go there.

So id refer you back to my response.

With regards to being naked, that's currently illegal and would still be illegal with trans protection laws. Trans people aren't the only ones who can be predators.

But is it illegal for a toddler to be naked in public?  Regardless if it's legal or not, you see children naked running around neighborhoods in the summers or at pools.  And that's the point: if a man who identifies as a woman is really a woman, then a man who identifies as a female child should be granted the same leniency and freedoms as a female child.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Why isn't the dad taking his daughter to the bathroom? And why is it so obvious he isn't taking his daughter to the bathroom? Taking care of your kid is really what being a dad is all about.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-14-2018, 11:18 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: To be fair, intentionally inflammatory posts regarding trans people are allowed because they don't specifically target members on this board. 

Constantly seeing "pervert", "weirdo", "sick", "mentally ill", "make believe" thrown in for just the sake of being intentionally inflammatory instantly sets these threads up to be shit shows. Hell, the most frequent offender has even said they want to secretly photograph a trans person who works at their local grocery store to share on here so we can mock them. What does that do to help dialogue? 

I haven't before, but I could play the family card as others have done. I don't think it's productive and I've never wanted anyone to think the only reason I care about treating people with dignity is because of my family, but if it prevents these shit shows, maybe it's worth it. 

To be fair. I don’t throw in mental illness for the sake of being inflammatory. It’s a widely supported medial opinion.

And don’t worry about using any card. I have purposely toned down on this topic for quite a while now. Anyone who has looked at my posting on it now versus back then when planet fitness guy lumbers into the women’s locker room can see the difference.