Mass shootings

[StLucieBengal]

(02-15-2018, 01:53 PM)GMDino Wrote: Again, this is that slippery slope that gun owners fear.

What signs?

Having too many guns?
Yelling at someone?
Cross dressing?

What is a sign that the police should force someone into a mental hospital based on the word of someone else?

Do you trust all doctors to diagnose someone?

I know we have a mental illness problem in this country and I have long advocated to get these people off the streets.

Between the nutcases and the people who have to over medicate themselves to be semi normal we can get them all into a mental asylum.

Overly Abnormal behavior would be a sign. Not sure owning “too many guns” would be a sign.

Making death or violent threats would certainly be a sign.

[GMDino]

(02-15-2018, 01:20 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: They need state ran asylums for the mentally ill.    That and allow the teachers and admins to have guns.  Can easily pay them a stipend to get certified.

I live here in south Florida and I certainly do not want anymore gun control legislation.

How about just helping the schools be more secure then?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/15/fla-lawmakers-repeatedly-denied-pleas-more-school-safety-money/339934002/

Quote:One day in October, Cmdr. Dale Tharp recalls, a Pensacola middle school student was bullied to his breaking point.


A tip led deputies to search the 14-year-old's gym bag, where they found a loaded 9mm pistol. Extra magazines were stuffed into a bag pocket.

The incident, Tharp said, is emblematic of how school security has changed since he started working as a resource officer in Escambia County more than 25 years ago.

"We used to be the good guys in white hats, breaking down the barrier between students and law enforcement," Tharp said. "Now, we’re making sure parents can send their kids to school and have them come home in the afternoons."

Tharp has noticed an even more jarring change to school security this year: He has fewer officers. Fewer barriers to prevent the kind of attack like the one that claimed at least 17 lives at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland on Wednesday.

More: Florida high school shooting: Here's what we know
More: Suspect in fatal Florida school attack is former student with 'anger' issues

Resource officers in Florida, in large part, are paid for from a pool of money called Safe Schools, earmarked each year strictly for school districts to use on safety and security expenses.

The state's 67 school districts this year are sharing $64.4 million, an amount unchanged for the past seven years.

Schools are supposed to use this money for a gamut of safety-and-security needs, from bullying prevention to after-school programs, yet more than 80% is spent on school resource officers.

As the 2018 legislative session trudges past the halfway point, Florida's Senate and House of Representatives are split on kicking in any more money for Safe Schools.

[/url]
Spread thin
Those dollars, as Tharp and educators across the state lament, are being spread thinner than ever. Many districts use their entire safety allocation for resource officers, leaving nothing left for other security needs.

"As long as you don’t have a catastrophic event, sometimes things like Safe Schools funding just have to take a back seat," said Juhan Mixon, executive director of the Florida Association of School Administrators. "I guess the hope is we will continue to be safe." 

Like many trends in Florida's education spending, the decline of Safe Schools began with the Great Recession, Mixon said.

Districts 10 years ago divvied up a Safe Schools pot of about $75.6 million, a plateau that hasn't been seen, or even approached, since. 

More: [url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/02/14/florida-school-shooting-2018/338466002/]Florida school shooting is the 6th to injure students this year
More: 20 years in, shootings have changed schools in unexpected ways

Since 2007, Safe Schools has been cut by 15% — little by little until it hit $64.4 million in 2011, according to the Department of Education. 

Florida school enrollment, meanwhile, grew by more than 300,000 students over the same span, according to the state.

Each district gets a minimum lump sum every year for Safe Schools, plus extra money based on the county's crime rate.

That minimum was $73,485 in 2007-08 compared to $62,660 in 2017-18, according to the state.

Martin County Sheriff's Office School Resource Deputy Dale Hardy, who is assigned to South Fork High School, and Connor Critoph, 12, of Indiantown, watch South Fork take on Olympic Heights during the high school girls soccer regional quarterfinal game Tuesday, Feb. 6, 2018, at South Fork High School in Tropical Farms. (Photo: XAVIER MASCAREÑAS/TCPALM)

Safe Schools funding, Mixon said, must be a priority for lawmakers so districts can make up for the money lost since the recession and keep up with the influx of students across the state.

And it's not as if educators haven't asked for more.

Numerous groups, including the Florida Association of School Administrators and the Florida Association of District School Superintendents, have told the state Board of Education they need more money for Safe Schools. For their part, board members agree the program is underfunded.

"The money … is nowhere near enough to do what’s necessary to keep schools safe," Andy Tuck, a member of the state Board of Education, said at a July 17 meeting after a presentation from Mixon.

Asking over and over
The Department of Education has asked the Legislature for more Safe Schools funding each of the past eight years, records reveal.

Yet year after year, lawmakers have set aside no more than the same $64.4 million.

The first plea came before the 2012-13 school year, when the Department of Education requested a $1.9 million increase to Safe Schools.

Lawmakers said no.

Undeterred, the Department of Education returned in 2013-14 with a smaller request: a $394,832 boost to Safe Schools.

Indian River County Sheriff's Deputy Jessica Ogonoski shares a laugh with students between classes Tuesday, Feb. 6, 2018, at Vero Beach High School. Ogonoski has been with the sheriff's office for four years and the school's resource officer since June. "Our goal as resource officers is not to get kids in trouble, but to engage, encourage and counsel students," Ogonoski said. Ogonoski was born and raised in Vero Beach and is a 2001 graduate of Vero Beach High School. (Photo: PATRICK DOVE/TCPALM)

Still, nothing.

The Department of Education asked for about a $1.2 million Safe Schools hike in 2014-15. But the Legislature voted for the same $64.4 million.

But the Department of Education didn't give up after having nominal increases rejected year after year. Officials asked the Legislature for an extra $10 million for Safe Schools three years in a row, and will again for 2019-20.

If that money makes it to the state budget, Safe Schools finally would be back to pre-recession funding.

"For four consecutive years, we have proudly proposed a $10 million increase in school safety, and I look forward to working with the Legislature to make this a reality," Tuck said in a statement to the USA TODAY Network.

More: Florida school shooting: Student describes teacher being shot while closing classroom door
More: Parents gather to reunite with students after school shooting

Tuck, at that July 17 meeting, implored local school districts to work with law enforcement to make sure both sides are paying their share for security. Most districts, as it turns out, already have partnerships to split the cost of resource officers with police departments and sheriff's offices.

Nevertheless, in 16 school districts, Safe Schools paid for at least 90% of school resource officers in 2015-16, the most recent data available from the Department of Education.

That maybe stop with the moronic suggestion that bullying is "good" for kids?

[BengalHawk62]

(02-15-2018, 01:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I know we have a mental illness problem in this country and I have long advocated to get these people off the streets.  

Between the nutcases and the people who have to over medicate themselves to be semi normal we can get them all into a mental asylum.

Where do you suggest we put them?   

[GMDino]

(02-15-2018, 01:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I know we have a mental illness problem in this country and I have long advocated to get these people off the streets.  

Between the nutcases and the people who have to over medicate themselves to be semi normal we can get them all into a mental asylum.

Didn't answer one damn question.

[Millhouse]

It amazes me how in all 50 states you have to have a driver's license to legally drive a car. But in numerous states such as Florida, there are no such requirements to buying a gun, let alone semi-autos.

The logic in Murica in the modern age is so backwards ass sometimes its embarrassing.

And on a side note, ****ing gun lobby a-holes are just as bad as big tobacco lobbyists used to be.

[GMDino]

(02-15-2018, 01:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I know we have a mental illness problem in this country and I have long advocated to get these people off the streets.  

Between the nutcases and the people who have to over medicate themselves to be semi normal we can get them all into a mental asylum.

Overly Abnormal behavior would be a sign.  Not sure owning “too many guns” would be a sign.  

Making death or violent  threats would certainly be a sign.

You edited after I quoted.

Still doesn't answer the question.

"overly abnormal behavior"?  Sending money to a televangelist maybe? Shouting prayers in the street?

[StLucieBengal]

(02-15-2018, 01:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: How about just helping the schools be more secure then?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/15/fla-lawmakers-repeatedly-denied-pleas-more-school-safety-money/339934002/



That maybe stop with the moronic suggestion that bullying is "good" for kids?

Maybe schools should take fist fights off the no tolerance list. Would you prefer more fist fights or guns?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-15-2018, 01:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Let's not forget to mention the political faction that wants to cut teacher pay and benefits also wants to task them with stopping maniacal killers with assault rifles.  Why don't we just give up on this war in the middle east stuff and put one person from the army in every classroom in every school in America?  I don't see why the same people who think teachers are a bunch of lazy entitled liberal wimps thinks handing them automatic weapons is going to work.

Game. Set. Match.  You think it's bad on a national level, you should check out the joke we have in the office of governor here.  I'd like to kick him in the sack.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-15-2018, 02:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: You edited after I quoted.

Still doesn't answer the question.

"overly abnormal behavior"?  Sending money to a televangelist maybe? Shouting prayers in the street?

Yes I am typing on my phone. So I need to come back an edit when the message gets too long. Maybe try not being a quick draw McGraw on responding lol.

I would say anything that belongs into the mental illness category. Certainly the ones who have violent signs.

Not quite are praying would be one. Pence has a pretty good response to this earlier.

[GMDino]

(02-15-2018, 02:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Maybe schools should take fist fights off the no tolerance list.   Would you prefer more fist fights or guns?

Neither.

How about you answer so question rather than keep pushing that kids need to bully and beat each other up?

[StLucieBengal]

(02-15-2018, 02:06 PM)GMDino Wrote: Neither.

How about you answer so question rather than keep pushing that kids need to bully and beat each other up?

I did answer your snarky question.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-15-2018, 01:41 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: with population taken into account, they weren't as rare as you'd think.

The 30's had 1 shooting for every 14 million people and the 40's had 1 for every 18 million people compared to the 2000's where it was 1 for every 10 million people.

50s-60s saw lows while the 80s-90s saw highs. Some might blame the access of semi automatic weapons. There have been more since the ban expired, but the number during the ban mirrored those before it, so that might not be the best argument. 

I assume you're talking about mass shootings, without your source it's difficult to tell.  Within that, what criteria are they using to determine a mass shooting?  As for the "assault weapons" ban, every ounce of empirical data showed it had zero effect on gun related crime.  As Matt alluded to earlier, and we have discussed, there's a lot more going on than access to firearms.

I won't deny, and no one should, that allowing civilian gun ownership on the scale permitted by the Constitution is going to result in gun related crime.  The question is, does the freedom outweigh the cost of said freedom?  We could save a lot of lives by making the maximum speed limit 40 mph, are people willing to do that?

[GMDino]

(02-15-2018, 02:05 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes I am typing on my phone.   So I need to come back an edit when the message gets too long.  Maybe try not being a quick draw McGraw on responding lol.  

I would say anything that belongs into the mental illness category.   Certainly the ones who have violent signs.  

Not quite are praying would be one.    Pence has a pretty good response to this earlier.

(02-15-2018, 02:08 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I did answer your snarky question.

Not quite...but I don't expect one.

However I will leave it at this:

As others have said this is not an easy topic.  They are multiple variables that go into such an act of violence and multiple variables behind the scenes making it difficult for us to do anything about them.

But just to put a fine point on the discussion you and I have had here:

Bullying is not a good thing.  Kids fist fighting is not a good thing.  Those things do not create better kids.

It's time to grow up past thinking being tough is the answer and understand that we can raise good kids who know that physical altercations are NOT the answer to our interpersonal problems and that accepting people who don't look or act like you think they should takes no more than just looking the other way.

[Benton]

(02-15-2018, 01:14 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: 1- Do most court houses need to facilitate the movement of 1500-3000 people within the building in a 20 minute span?

2- With regards to the running part, we have a variety of drill that we practice and none involve just running. 

3- We have shelter in place for natural disasters. We're not to leave our rooms but we continue teaching.

4- We have lock downs where we immediately lock the doors, the school doors are locked. We cover our windows, turn our lights off, and get against the wall where you couldn't see from the door. 

5- We have modified lock downs where we lock the door, cover the windows, and turn the lights off but we can keep teaching.

6- We have your standard evacuation. We have reverse evacuation where we have to return because of an issue outside.

7- We lock all outside doors except for the front ones. Our elementary and middle schools lock the front ones and require you to be buzzed in. We have resource officers in our schools. We promote always looking out for anyone who seems out of place.

1- Stagger start times. Industrial areas cooperate and do it so they don't dump 5,000 motorists into a half mile radius at the same time. Also, not all schools are 1,500-3,000. At Marshall, there's only around 1,400 students; Heath was less than 600.

2- Ok. Here, the drills are just running. Run for an exit or a safe room. 

3- If there's a hurricane while there's a school shooting I guess that's good, but I'm not seeing relevance.

4- Lockdowns and safe rooms in the case of Marshall put the shooter locked in a room with kids and a teacher. Personally, lockdowns have got to be the dumbest decision in a school shooter. You're putting clusters of unarmed kids together in hopes nothing bad happens.

5- Ok

6- Ok

7- Another idea that's good on paper, but not really effective. In the Marshall shooting, the high school unlocks all doors at 7:45 to allow for the influx of students. Only two doors in or out (opposite ends of a very long building). Luckily, Gabe started shooting after 7:50. If the doors had still been locked, you'd have had 700+ kids trapped in a giant room with the shooter.

Many (most?) schools across the country were built long before school shootings became common. They're not designed to be defensible structures. And the current approaches largely don't do much other than get kids shot.

[BmorePat87]

(02-15-2018, 02:56 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I assume you're talking about mass shootings, without your source it's difficult to tell.  Within that, what criteria are they using to determine a mass shooting?  As for the "assault weapons" ban, every ounce of empirical data showed it had zero effect on gun related crime.  As Matt alluded to earlier, and we have discussed, there's a lot more going on than access to firearms.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/bill-clintons-over-the-top-fact-on-mass-shootings/2013/01/10/7040d61e-5b7a-11e2-9fa9-5fbdc9530eb9_blog.html?utm_term=.af79145f95f3

Their source:

[/url]

Quote:[url=http://www.doc.state.mn.us/org/commissioneroffice/planperf.htm]Grant Duwe, director of research and evaluation at the Minnesota Department of Corrections, assembled a data set going back 100 years for a 2007 book titled, “Mass Murder in the United States: A History.” He used the FBI Supplementary Homicide Reports, which date from 1976, and then supplemented the FBI reports with news reports (principally The New York Times) dating from 1900.

So this can actually mean they're underrepresented from 30's-70's, but it can also mean it's subjective. It's not perfect.

Quote:I won't deny, and no one should, that allowing civilian gun ownership on the scale permitted by the Constitution is going to result in gun related crime.  The question is, does the freedom outweigh the cost of said freedom?  We could save a lot of lives by making the maximum speed limit 40 mph, are people willing to do that?

When comparing countries with mass shootings, the trend is more guns means more mass shootings. Even with the US and it's disproportional gun ownership removed from the data, it means more mass shootings when you own more guns. Same with all gun related crimes, as you said.

But, yea, this is a constitutionally protected right. We can't remove guns. 

[StLucieBengal]

(02-15-2018, 03:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: Not quite...but I don't expect one.

However I will leave it at this:

As others have said this is not an easy topic.  They are multiple variables that go into such an act of violence and multiple variables behind the scenes making it difficult for us to do anything about them.

But just to put a fine point on the discussion you and I have had here:

Bullying is not a good thing.  Kids fist fighting is not a good thing.  Those things do not create better kids.

It's time to grow up past thinking being tough is the answer and understand that we can raise good kids who know that physical altercations are NOT the answer to our interpersonal problems and that accepting people who don't look or act like you think they should takes no more than just looking the other way.

Lol you will leave it at this .... haha.

Bullying is fine. Yeah it sucks that someone feels bad but we can’t lose the valuable life lessons for everyone involved.

If fist fights weren’t under no tolerance at school then we would see more which would give violent people an outlet to simmer down. So they wouldn’t have to ramp It up.

You can’t have males together and not have some sort of altercations. You see it everywhere. Whether it’s a fight, bullying, making fun of, it’s always a pack mentality and there is a fight to be the leader of that pack. If your answer to that issue is to make sure you raise beta males then so be it..... betas are great to stop violence the problem is they are terrible leaders.

You are entitled to your own views on how to raise men. And I am certainly entitled to mine. Stop using a school shooting as a reason to virtue signal. It’s pretty sad to attempt to use the emotion of the moment to make a point. Take the emotion out of your life.

[BmorePat87]

(02-15-2018, 03:23 PM)Benton Wrote: 1- Stagger start times. Industrial areas cooperate and do it so they don't dump 5,000 motorists into a half mile radius at the same time. Also, not all schools are 1,500-3,000. At Marshall, there's only around 1,400 students; Heath was less than 600.

Yea, we're about 1450. At Heath it would be viable. At our school it wouldn't. It could be a solution some places and not others, but for the costs alone of staggering bus services and start times at a single school could be in the millions. We're currently discussing start time changes here and it has major financial implications.

Quote:2- Ok. Here, the drills are just running. Run for an exit or a safe room. 

And this responses wasn't meant to be a "that's not true" but more of a "this is how we do it". That's terrible that they don't do these simple drills. 

Quote:4- Lockdowns and safe rooms in the case of Marshall put the shooter locked in a room with kids and a teacher. Personally, lockdowns have got to be the dumbest decision in a school shooter. You're putting clusters of unarmed kids together in hopes nothing bad happens.

This works in a Columbine situation where the shooters are roaming the halls. It doesn't necessarily work in other situations where the shooter starts in a classroom, but these are all reactionary responses. When the shooting occurs, if you can lock yourself in a room, you're far safer than trying to leave the school. 

Quote:7- Another idea that's good on paper, but not really effective. In the Marshall shooting, the high school unlocks all doors at 7:45 to allow for the influx of students. Only two doors in or out (opposite ends of a very long building). Luckily, Gabe started shooting after 7:50. If the doors had still been locked, you'd have had 700+ kids trapped in a giant room with the shooter.

It works at our school for how it is built. Definitely not a one size fits all solution, but it helps for scenarios where an outside shooter tries to come into a building.

Quote:Many (most?) schools across the country were built long before school shootings became common. They're not designed to be defensible structures. And the current approaches largely don't do much other than get kids shot.

This is why my response was a "this is what we do" response. Every system is different and even within districts, every building is different. In our county, each school has a safety coordinator who develops these plans based on the specifics of the building.

We're also the 3rd wealthiest county in the country, so we can afford a lot of resources, so our experiences are not the same as others.

[StLucieBengal]

In Belarus they stagger start times. Odd grades go in the morning and even go at 2.

This would be interesting to have here.

I imagine we will see more home schooling and online schooling. Florida has the virtual option already. It’s wifely used.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-15-2018, 03:24 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/bill-clintons-over-the-top-fact-on-mass-shootings/2013/01/10/7040d61e-5b7a-11e2-9fa9-5fbdc9530eb9_blog.html?utm_term=.af79145f95f3

Their source:

[url=http://www.doc.state.mn.us/org/commissioneroffice/planperf.htm][/url]


So this can actually mean they're underrepresented from 30's-70's, but it can also mean it's subjective. It's not perfect.



When comparing countries with mass shootings, the trend is more guns means more mass shootings. Even with the US and it's disproportional gun ownership removed from the data, it means more mass shootings when you own more guns. Same with all gun related crimes, as you said.

But, yea, this is a constitutionally protected right. We can't remove guns. 

See, I agree with this.  I am pro gun, but hardly a gun nut.  I have a long range 30-06 rifle, a 12 gauge pump, a .22 rifle, and no longer have a pistol, although I will purchase another one.  IF we ever got into a survival situation, I can use a combination of all of these to hunt game, and protect my family.  I personally don't see the need in automatic and rapid fire semi-automatic weapons with ridiculous magazines.  Those types of weapons help facilitate the ease of shootings like these.  There absolutely needs to be better communication regarding any mental issues and past violent crimes and the purchasing of firearms.  I don't see how these people slip through the cracks, to be honest.  I purchased my last gun two years ago, I waited 10 days before I could go pick it up.

[GMDino]

(02-15-2018, 03:27 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Lol you will leave it at this .... haha.

Bullying is fine.  Yeah it sucks that someone feels bad but we can’t lose the valuable life lessons for everyone involved.  

If fist fights weren’t under no tolerance at school then we would see more which would give violent people an outlet to simmer down.   So they wouldn’t have to ramp It up.  

You can’t have males together and not have some sort of altercations.   You see it everywhere.   Whether it’s a fight, bullying, making fun of, it’s always a pack mentality and there is a fight to be the leader of that pack.   If your answer to that issue is to make sure you raise beta males then so be it.....   betas are great to stop violence the problem is they are terrible leaders.  

You are entitled to your own views on how to raise men.   And I am certainly entitled to mine.   Stop using a school shooting as a reason to virtue signal.   It’s pretty sad to attempt to use the emotion of the moment to make a point.    Take the emotion out of your life.

As I said:  grow up.