Race, culture and assimilation

[Rotobeast]

(06-13-2016, 02:57 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: These people just casually stroll through your bedroom?  Ya' agoraphobe.

My wife forces me out into public.
Otherwise, you'd be totally right.
LOL

[masterpanthera_t]

I would simply want a society where no one "group" dominates and forces their beliefs/customs on others either explicitly or implicitly, either through laws that infringe on anyone's right to their beliefs and lifestyles (unless the beliefs or lifestyle interferes with another's rights or lifestyle). The rest I leave to some combination of "common" sense and respect. So if a foreigner of a different culture wants to keep his cultural identity and beliefs I'm ok with that as long as my rights are not infringed upon and as long as the foreigner is not following different laws or given the ability to follow different laws than the rest of Americans are. I also wouldn't expect the foreigners to "change" unless of course not "changing" means another person's rights are infringed upon.

[Benton]

(06-13-2016, 03:23 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: I would simply want a society where no one "group" dominates and forces their beliefs/customs on others either explicitly or implicitly, either through laws that infringe on anyone's right to their beliefs and lifestyles (unless the beliefs or lifestyle interferes with another's rights or lifestyle).  The rest I leave to some combination of "common" sense and respect.  So if a foreigner of a different culture wants to keep his cultural identity and beliefs I'm ok with that as long as my rights are not infringed upon and as long as the foreigner is not following different laws or given the ability to follow different laws than the rest of Americans are.  I also wouldn't expect the foreigners to "change" unless of course not "changing" means another person's rights are infringed upon.

I think most people agree with you. They just get caught up in the hyperbole of a few with things like "assimilate or go home."

[StLucieBengal]

(06-13-2016, 01:58 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I prefer the word integrate to assimilate, but that might be a question of semantics.

People of all races, religions, cultures, whathaveyou can get along just fine. Hell, it happens everyday and nobody says a peep about it. But you're always going to have some bad apples, and unfortunately the bad apples get the spotlight.

As for how a country approaches it, I don't much care. As long as the government actively prohibits segregation.

Why do you use integrate over assimilation?  They aren't the same.  

you support keeping groups seperate? ....   Because it's shown that is what happens when it's integration over assimilation.  

Big issue in Europe and the United States. 

[Belsnickel]

(06-13-2016, 05:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Why do you use integrate over assimilation?  They aren't the same.  

you support keeping groups seperate? ....   Because it's shown that is what happens when it's integration over assimilation.  

Big issue in Europe and the United States. 

Assimilate just makes me think of this:

[StLucieBengal]

(06-13-2016, 03:23 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: I would simply want a society where no one "group" dominates and forces their beliefs/customs on others either explicitly or implicitly, either through laws that infringe on anyone's right to their beliefs and lifestyles (unless the beliefs or lifestyle interferes with another's rights or lifestyle).  The rest I leave to some combination of "common" sense and respect.  So if a foreigner of a different culture wants to keep his cultural identity and beliefs I'm ok with that as long as my rights are not infringed upon and as long as the foreigner is not following different laws or given the ability to follow different laws than the rest of Americans are.  I also wouldn't expect the foreigners to "change" unless of course not "changing" means another person's rights are infringed upon.

So you are ok as long as try follow the laws, treat others equally, and general western way of life?   

Then you support assimilation.  

If you support them doing things they are used to doing in their home country.   Like sex with children, oppressing women, dragging children out of their school by their hair because the child took off their hijab.  

Then you support integration.  

[StLucieBengal]

(06-13-2016, 04:13 PM)Benton Wrote: I think most people agree with you. They just get caught up in the hyperbole of a few with things like "assimilate or go home."

we lose what makes us special if we constantly integrate.  We aren't making a world society

[masterpanthera_t]

(06-13-2016, 05:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So you are ok as long as try follow the laws, treat others equally, and general western way of life?   

Then you support assimilation.  

If you support them doing things they are used to doing in their home country.   Like sex with children, oppressing women, dragging children out of their school by their hair because the child took off their hijab.  

Then you support integration.  

This part of my post that was quoted should answer your question for you.

(06-13-2016, 03:23 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: as long as the foreigner is not following different laws or given the ability to follow different laws than the rest of Americans are.  I also wouldn't expect the foreigners to "change" unless of course not "changing" means another person's rights are infringed upon.

Although I don't believe that my opinion would fall under any particular classification that you provided nor do I particularly want it to do so.  

[Benton]

(06-13-2016, 05:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: we lose what makes us special if we constantly integrate.  We aren't making a world society

Three hundred years of practice would say otherwise. The Irish didn't ruin the country. The Germans in the early 1800s didn't. The Chinese didn't. The Catholics didn't. The Germans and Jews didn't again in the mid-20th century. Mexicans didn't and — according to some — are providing a large portion of cheap labor helping keep the economy running.

All those groups came here in large numbers and integrated. That's what American culture is, a mix of everywhere else. THAT is what makes is special. The fact you can get a Korean pedicure while you wait for your table at the Mexican restaurant next door, now while smoking a Cuban cigar, drinking Irish whiskey, while watching the latest JJ Abrams (he's Jewish) movie on your Nokia (Finnish) smart phone. You can do that and best of all, you can even put your culture into it. Come from a strong German background? Great! Host a build-a-brat night in your neighborhood to meet other of a like heritage. Got some Cherokee? Attend a tribal dance or similar event.

The fact we can celebrate those differences makes us special. Not being bigoted or xenophobic.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-13-2016, 06:03 PM)Benton Wrote: Three hundred years of practice would say otherwise. The Irish didn't ruin the country. The Germans in the early 1800s didn't. The Chinese didn't. The Catholics didn't. The Germans and Jews didn't again in the mid-20th century. Mexicans didn't and — according to some — are providing a large portion of cheap labor helping keep the economy running.

All those groups came here in large numbers and integrated. That's what American culture is, a mix of everywhere else. THAT is what makes is special. The fact you can get a Korean pedicure while you wait for your table at the Mexican restaurant next door, now while smoking a Cuban cigar, drinking Irish whiskey, while watching the latest JJ Abrams (he's Jewish) movie on your Nokia (Finnish) smart phone. You can do that and best of all, you can even put your culture into it. Come from a strong German background? Great! Host a build-a-brat night in your neighborhood to meet other of a like heritage. Got some Cherokee? Attend a tribal dance or similar event.

The fact we can celebrate those differences makes us special. Not being bigoted or xenophobic.

You can still hold on to you culture while falling in line with western culture you are trying to join.   

We do plenty of Belorussian things and our friends are exposed to those things.  But we follow the laws and culture.    

The issue with these Muslims in Europe for example is that they are blatantly not respecting the culture of the country they are going.    Whether it's how they treat women, sex with children, pooping in the streets, we could go on....    You lose certain ways of life when you go to a new country and those ways aren't accepted either by law (sex with children/pooping in the the streets) or just overall oppression of women.    

Sorry but some ways of other cultures just aren't wanted or accepted here.   No reason to import problems.  

[StLucieBengal]

(06-13-2016, 05:37 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: This part of my post that was quoted should answer your question for you.
Although I don't believe that my opinion would fall under any particular classification that you provided nor do I particularly want it to do so.  

If they come from western countries then there isn't much change for them.   But when we start getting into these other regions it's a big difference.   There are some things that need to change.   Just as if you and I immigrated to Saudi Arabia .... We would be expected to follow their ways.    

I understand that you want to straddle the line of live and let live... But other than some utopian fantasy .... Other cultures will just clash with our western culture. It's the immigrant who needs to make sure the clashes don't happen. It's on them to adjust.

[masterpanthera_t]

(06-13-2016, 06:47 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: If they come from western countries then there isn't much change for them.   But when we start getting into these other regions it's a big difference.   There are some things that need to change.   Just as if you and I immigrated to Saudi Arabia .... We would be expected to follow their ways.    

I understand that you want to straddle the line of live and let live... But other than some utopian fantasy .... Other cultures will just clash with our western culture.  It's the immigrant who needs to make sure the clashes don't happen.   It's on them to adjust.

Already addressed in my post that was quoted.  

[StLucieBengal]

(06-13-2016, 06:54 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: Already addressed in my post that was quoted.  

Yup I know you want to bury your head in the sand unless it affects you.   

Would you sit by and allow a man to drag his child out of school by her hair? Would you just sit back and watch?  

[CKwi88]

(06-13-2016, 06:03 PM)Benton Wrote: Three hundred years of practice would say otherwise. The Irish didn't ruin the country. The Germans in the early 1800s didn't. The Chinese didn't. The Catholics didn't. The Germans and Jews didn't again in the mid-20th century. Mexicans didn't and — according to some — are providing a large portion of cheap labor helping keep the economy running.

All those groups came here in large numbers and integrated. That's what American culture is, a mix of everywhere else. THAT is what makes is special. The fact you can get a Korean pedicure while you wait for your table at the Mexican restaurant next door, now while smoking a Cuban cigar, drinking Irish whiskey, while watching the latest JJ Abrams (he's Jewish) movie on your Nokia (Finnish) smart phone. You can do that and best of all, you can even put your culture into it. Come from a strong German background? Great! Host a build-a-brat night in your neighborhood to meet other of a like heritage. Got some Cherokee? Attend a tribal dance or similar event.

The fact we can celebrate those differences makes us special. Not being bigoted or xenophobic.

That sums up my thoughts nicely. 


It could just be my interpretation of the words, but I associate "assimilation" with a loss of culture and "integration" with more of a sharing of cultures. Its understandable that some don't appreciate the travesty that a loss of culture is when the United States' contributions to its own culture are minimal. Like Benton said, our entire culture is a mix of dozens of different ones, with a few of our own thrown in. 

Imagine if we forced all the immigrants who came here before to assimilate and forfeit their cultures. America would be left with what today? Fast food, Western Movies and the Assembly Line? 

[masterpanthera_t]

(06-13-2016, 07:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yup I know you want to bury your head in the sand unless it affects you.   

Would you sit by and allow a man to drag his child out of school by her hair? Would you just sit back and watch?  

"as long as the foreigner is not following different laws or given the ability to follow different laws than the rest of Americans are."  This is what I have posted.  
From where you get your 
"Yup I know you want to bury your head in the sand unless it affects you.   Would you sit by and allow a man to drag his child out of school by her hair? Would you just sit back and watch?"
I have no idea.

[Benton]

(06-13-2016, 06:43 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  
We do plenty of Belorussian things and our friends are exposed to those things.  But we follow the laws and culture.    

The issue with these Muslims in Europe for example is that they are blatantly not respecting the culture of the country they are going.    Whether it's how they treat women, sex with children, pooping in the streets, we could go on....   

And this sums up the back and forth between many posters and yourself. To the bold, most people do. The ones that don't are typically criminals. They're a minority in our country. They're a minority in most countries. Not people who make a bad decision, or someone who breaks traffic law, I mean actual criminals like child abusers, spousal abusers, murderers, etc. We have those, every country does.

But where your posts turn to xenophobia is with those next two lines. You point to a minority and say "look, all those people are bad." And then there's the inevitable circle where it gets pointed out that every country — even our own which is unarguably the best country going — has a minority of morons. "These Muslims in Europe" are as diverse as 'those Baptists in Arkansas' or 'those Irish guys in Derry' or 'those ladies from Argentina.' The thing is, the idea of all people coming here is old, and so is the same fear that makes you post flawed concepts and unfounded stories. Acceptance and tolerance take time, but it happens quicker with open minds.

[*jason*]

(06-13-2016, 06:03 PM)Benton Wrote: Three hundred years of practice would say otherwise. The Irish didn't ruin the country. The Germans in the early 1800s didn't. The Chinese didn't. The Catholics didn't. The Germans and Jews didn't again in the mid-20th century. Mexicans didn't and — according to some — are providing a large portion of cheap labor helping keep the economy running.

All those groups came here in large numbers and integrated. That's what American culture is, a mix of everywhere else. THAT is what makes is special. The fact you can get a Korean pedicure while you wait for your table at the Mexican restaurant next door, now while smoking a Cuban cigar, drinking Irish whiskey, while watching the latest JJ Abrams (he's Jewish) movie on your Nokia (Finnish) smart phone. You can do that and best of all, you can even put your culture into it. Come from a strong German background? Great! Host a build-a-brat night in your neighborhood to meet other of a like heritage. Got some Cherokee? Attend a tribal dance or similar event.

The fact we can celebrate those differences makes us special. Not being bigoted or xenophobic.

Americans love to claim that they are part native American. Most of our ancestors came here after the whole assimilate the Indians idea was replaced by removal and extermination. So I'd say the likelihood of ol Grandpappy getting it on with a squaw is minimal. They always claim that they are part Cherokee. Is it because that's the only nation they have heard of? How come I never meet a guy that is half Nez Perce? No Comanches. No Delaware. No Crow. Me personally, I'd dream up a Lakota ancestor. I just find that to be a comical element of American culture.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-13-2016, 08:38 PM)jason Wrote: Americans love to claim that they are part native American. Most of our ancestors came here after the whole assimilate the Indians idea was replaced by removal and extermination. So I'd say the likelihood of ol Grandpappy getting it on with a squaw is minimal. They always claim that they are part Cherokee. Is it because that's the only nation they have heard of? How come I never meet a guy that is half Nez Perce? No Comanches. No Delaware. No Crow. Me personally, I'd dream up a Lakota ancestor. I just find that to be a comical element of American culture.

I'm 1/16 Wyandot.  The last tribe to leave Ohio.

[GMDino]

(06-13-2016, 07:12 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: "as long as the foreigner is not following different laws or given the ability to follow different laws than the rest of Americans are."  This is what I have posted.  
From where you get your 
"Yup I know you want to bury your head in the sand unless it affects you.   Would you sit by and allow a man to drag his child out of school by her hair? Would you just sit back and watch?"
I have no idea.

Welcome to PnR.  Unfortunately some do not read but just reply....

[Rotobeast]

(06-13-2016, 08:38 PM)jason Wrote: Americans love to claim that they are part native American. Most of our ancestors came here after the whole assimilate the Indians idea was replaced by removal and extermination. So I'd say the likelihood of ol Grandpappy getting it on with a squaw is minimal. They always claim that they are part Cherokee. Is it because that's the only nation they have heard of? How come I never meet a guy that is half Nez Perce? No Comanches. No Delaware. No Crow. Me personally, I'd dream up a Lakota ancestor. I just find that to be a comical element of American culture.

You called ?

1/8th Cherokee.... not much really and it doesn't qualify for shit.
If I were 1/8th black, that'd be different.

One of my best friends is half Seminole, half Blackfoot.

I will admit, the most Native culture I've experienced is from hanging with some Navajos in NM.
*edit* I forgot.... I have went through a blood-brother ritual. (not that you'd believe that, either)

Soooo..... what point would you like to discuss that is relative to this matter ?