Violence at Israeli-Gazan Border

[Belsnickel]

I'm posting a variety of links that are news sources, not opinion or analysis pieces. It's always good to read different takes on the events that have been unfolding:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/middleeast/gaza-protests-palestinians-us-embassy.html

https://www.afp.com/en/news/23/gaza-toll-rises-60-fresh-protests-against-israel-gather-doc-14v7jx16

https://apnews.com/42e68289e3244ca2879f258d4e445850/58-dead-in-Gaza-protests-as-Israel-fetes-US-Embassy-move

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-usa-protests-palestinians/israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in-gaza-as-u-s-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem-idUSKCN1IF0M8

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44116340

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2018/0514/US-embassy-opens-in-Jerusalem-as-dozens-killed-in-Gaza

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/14/610934534/18-palestinian-protesters-die-gaza-officials-say-as-u-s-opens-jerusalem-embassy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/jerusalem-gears-up-to-embrace-the-new-us-embassy/2018/05/14/1d6707dc-5558-11e8-a6d4-ca1d035642ce_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.65dccf735935

https://www.axios.com/us-embassy-jerusalem-during-gaza-protests-death-toll-46abc366-af06-407b-a61f-aa1498eff58f.html

https://www.allsides.com/story/clashes-gaza-us-embassy-opening

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/carnage-and-celebration-mark-u-s-embassy-opening-in-jerusalem

So I'm not sure what you all have heard or read about what's going on, but this is definitely a mess going on right now. Since this is a highly politicized topic, there are a lot of different points of view over the blame that is to go around. I listened to a reporter talking about Gaza, recently, and describing what this area is like. How the people are essentially imprisoned in this land, unable to leave and under a blockade. It's easy to say that Hamas is to blame for this, so it's their own fault, but when you have young people that have been living all or most of their lives under this 11 year struggle it becomes hard to place blame on them.

This is just such a complicated situation and sad that lives were lost. I feel the events of this week will do serious harm towards any peace process in the region, and that damage can be blamed on Israel, the Palestinians, and the U.S.

[GMDino]

(05-15-2018, 09:21 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm posting a variety of links that are news sources, not opinion or analysis pieces. It's always good to read different takes on the events that have been unfolding:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/middleeast/gaza-protests-palestinians-us-embassy.html

https://www.afp.com/en/news/23/gaza-toll-rises-60-fresh-protests-against-israel-gather-doc-14v7jx16

https://apnews.com/42e68289e3244ca2879f258d4e445850/58-dead-in-Gaza-protests-as-Israel-fetes-US-Embassy-move

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-usa-protests-palestinians/israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in-gaza-as-u-s-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem-idUSKCN1IF0M8

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44116340

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2018/0514/US-embassy-opens-in-Jerusalem-as-dozens-killed-in-Gaza

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/14/610934534/18-palestinian-protesters-die-gaza-officials-say-as-u-s-opens-jerusalem-embassy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/jerusalem-gears-up-to-embrace-the-new-us-embassy/2018/05/14/1d6707dc-5558-11e8-a6d4-ca1d035642ce_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.65dccf735935

https://www.axios.com/us-embassy-jerusalem-during-gaza-protests-death-toll-46abc366-af06-407b-a61f-aa1498eff58f.html

https://www.allsides.com/story/clashes-gaza-us-embassy-opening

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/carnage-and-celebration-mark-u-s-embassy-opening-in-jerusalem

So I'm not sure what you all have heard or read about what's going on, but this is definitely a mess going on right now. Since this is a highly politicized topic, there are a lot of different points of view over the blame that is to go around. I listened to a reporter talking about Gaza, recently, and describing what this area is like. How the people are essentially imprisoned in this land, unable to leave and under a blockade. It's easy to say that Hamas is to blame for this, so it's their own fault, but when you have young people that have been living all or most of their lives under this 11 year struggle it becomes hard to place blame on them.

This is just such a complicated situation and sad that lives were lost. I feel the events of this week will do serious harm towards any peace process in the region, and that damage can be blamed on Israel, the Palestinians, and the U.S.

And I agree beyond the people shot for throwing rocks my biggest problem is that Trump moving the embassy and all that went with it they have effectively tipped the situation to where I can not see any kind of agreements/peace/negotiation.

[Belsnickel]

(05-15-2018, 09:34 AM)GMDino Wrote: And I agree beyond the people shot for throwing rocks my biggest problem is that Trump moving the embassy and all that went with it they have effectively tipped the situation to where I can not see any kind of agreements/peace/negotiation.

Yeah, this is the sentiment from just about the entire Palestinian side. The U.S. moving the embassy to Jerusalem, calling it the capital of Israel, and saying it is in Israel, all point to the U.S. not being a fair arbiter of any peace process in the region. They already had the feeling of it with the close relationship Israel and the U.S. have shared over the decades, but this move has drawn a lot of ire. According to the NYT reporter in Gaza I was listening to, he was saying the rhetoric during the protests was almost exclusively against the U.S. Not even anti-Israeli, just anti-U.S. That is not a good sign moving forward.

[GMDino]

As an aside at least Drudge was honest this morning:

[StLucieBengal]

(05-15-2018, 09:34 AM)GMDino Wrote: And I agree beyond the people shot for throwing rocks my biggest problem is that Trump moving the embassy and all that went with it they have effectively tipped the situation to where I can not see any kind of agreements/peace/negotiation.

(05-15-2018, 09:40 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, this is the sentiment from just about the entire Palestinian side. The U.S. moving the embassy to Jerusalem, calling it the capital of Israel, and saying it is in Israel, all point to the U.S. not being a fair arbiter of any peace process in the region. They already had the feeling of it with the close relationship Israel and the U.S. have shared over the decades, but this move has drawn a lot of ire. According to the NYT reporter in Gaza I was listening to, he was saying the rhetoric during the protests was almost exclusively against the U.S. Not even anti-Israeli, just anti-U.S. That is not a good sign moving forward.

1. They were and have been at a stalemate for years. At some point there needed to be someone to come in and make a move to change it up and spur on some peace

2. The side led by terrorists.

3. Let them hate us. It’s not like they were ever going to love us. Maybe now they are work for a one state solution and be part of that.

Everyone knows how I feel about the “Palestinians”. I just do not see how we can take them seriously when they choose leaders like Hamas and Abbas. Nor should we take them seriously when they act like a bunch of out of control animals.

[GMDino]

(05-15-2018, 10:02 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 1. They were and have been at a stalemate for years.   At some point there needed to be someone to come in and make a move to change it up and spur on some peace

This shows a deep lack of understanding.

(05-15-2018, 10:02 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 2. The side led by terrorists.  

One sides terrorists is the other sides freedom fighters.

(05-15-2018, 10:02 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: 3. Let them hate us.   It’s not like they were ever going to love us.    Maybe now they are work for a one state solution and be part of that.

See point 1.  

(05-15-2018, 10:02 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Everyone knows how I feel about the “Palestinians”.    I just do not see how we can take them seriously when they choose leaders like Hamas and Abbas.   Nor should we take them seriously when they act like a bunch of out of control animals.

"Animals"= "savages".

They are human beings. And rather than try and fix anything we have funded and sided with one side while claiming the other side doesn't "like us"?

Sad.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-15-2018, 10:05 AM)GMDino Wrote: This shows a deep lack of understanding.


One sides terrorists is the other sides freedom fighters.


See point 1.  


"Animals"= "savages".

They are human beings. And rather than try and fix anything we have funded and sided with one side while claiming the other side doesn't "like us"?

Sad.

The entire Israeli/“Palestine” issue is a joke. It’s one group so unorganized they elect leader who are terrorists and opportunists to take advantage of this unorganized group. I do feel bad for these people. I don’t want them to die, which is why they need to go home back to Jordan or either agree to a one state under Israel. Hamas and Abbas won’t agree to that because they will lose their gravy train.

The terrorists are leading the “Palestinians”, Israel is just trying to secure their border.

They are acting like savages.

Last time I checked we fund the “Palestinians” as well. The only problem is that Hamas and Abbas use the money to enrich themselves instead of the “palestian” people.

That fact that we should be holding them accountable but we don’t, and just blame the israeli’s.

[Belsnickel]

(05-15-2018, 10:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The entire Israeli/“Palestine” issue is a joke. It’s one group so unorganized they elect leader who are terrorists and opportunists to take advantage of this unorganized group. I do feel bad for these people. I don’t want them to die, which is why they need to go home back to Jordan or either agree to a one state under Israel. Hamas and Abbas won’t agree to that because they will lose their gravy train.

People that have been kicked off of the land they held for generations before the creation of Israel and are now in the territory that is supposed to be their own according to international agreements should go back to Jordan?

[StLucieBengal]

(05-15-2018, 10:29 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: People that have been kicked off of the land they held for generations before the creation of Israel and are now in the territory that is supposed to be their own according to international agreements should go back to Jordan?

Would you support returning the United States to the Indians?

They lost their land, whether it was fair and square or by hook and crook, they lost it and just because they claim to have owned it long ago doesn’t make them the rightful owners now.

They can easily live there in peace by being part of Israel. They do not need to bring the terrorists with them.

[GMDino]

(05-15-2018, 10:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The entire Israeli/“Palestine” issue is a joke.  It’s one group so unorganized they elect leader who are terrorists and opportunists to take advantage of this unorganized group.  I do feel bad for these people.  I don’t want them to die, which is why they need to go home back to Jordan or either agree to a one state under Israel.  Hamas and Abbas won’t agree to that because they will lose their gravy train.

Matt handled the "go home back to Jordan"  

(05-15-2018, 10:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The terrorists are leading the “Palestinians”, Israel is just trying to secure their border.  

By shooting people throwing rocks.

(05-15-2018, 10:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: They are acting like savages.  

Well if they had a bigger, better army.....

(05-15-2018, 10:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Last time I checked we fund the “Palestinians” as well.   The only problem is that Hamas and Abbas use the money to enrich themselves instead of the “palestian” people.

Sigh. We fund a UN group to help with refugees. And Trump threatened to stop that because Palenstein won't negotiate "fairly".

Think he would threaten Israel's billions in actual funding over the same thing?

(05-15-2018, 10:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: That fact that we should be holding them accountable but we don’t, and just blame the israeli’s.

Yes. Poor Israel.

Maybe they can give us some good info on Iran to and Iraq again to make up for it.

[GMDino]

(05-15-2018, 10:36 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Would you support returning the United States to the Indians?  

They lost their land, whether it was fair and square or by hook and crook, they lost it and just because they claim to have owned it long ago doesn’t make them the rightful owners now.    

They can easily live there in peace by being part of Israel. They do not need to bring the terrorists with them.

Can they practice their religion there then or don't they have the right because of a way 50 years ago?

[StLucieBengal]

(05-15-2018, 10:41 AM)GMDino Wrote: Can they practice their religion there then or don't they have the right because of a way 50 years ago?

Israeli controlled areas allow other religions to be practiced at holy sites. Muslim controlled areas do not allow other religions to be practiced at holy sites.

[Bengalzona]

(05-15-2018, 10:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  I don’t want them to die, which is why they need to go home back to Jordan or either agree to a one state under Israel. 

Fascinating, since even the Israelis endorse the "Two State Solution".

[StLucieBengal]

(05-15-2018, 10:47 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Fascinating, since even the Israelis endorse the "Two State Solution".

Good for them. Personally I do not see it possible while the “Palestinians” are led by Abbas and Hamas. Have a hard time believing there are no non terrorist or non thieves who wish to step up and lead. If they did that then maybe there would be a way.

[GMDino]

(05-15-2018, 10:56 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Good for them.  Personally I do not see it possible while the “Palestinians” are led by Abbas and Hamas.   Have a hard time believing there are no non terrorist or non thieves who wish to step up and lead.  If they did that then maybe there would be a way.

I feel the same way about Israel.

[Belsnickel]

(05-15-2018, 10:36 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Would you support returning the United States to the Indians?

They lost their land, whether it was fair and square or by hook and crook, they lost it and just because they claim to have owned it long ago doesn’t make them the rightful owners now.

They can easily live there in peace by being part of Israel. They do not need to bring the terrorists with them.

Your comparison is flawed. Telling the Palestinians to "go back to Jordan" would be like telling the indigenous people from within the modern U.S. to "go back to Canada or Mexico." You're telling them to go back somewhere that they didn't come from.

(05-15-2018, 10:56 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Good for them. Personally I do not see it possible while the “Palestinians” are led by Abbas and Hamas. Have a hard time believing there are no non terrorist or non thieves who wish to step up and lead. If they did that then maybe there would be a way.

If the two-state solution were implemented and negotiated, the Palestinians likely wouldn't end up with terrorist leaders. The reason they put those people in power is because Israel gives them ammunition through their continued settlement building and violence. It is a perpetual cycle of violence from Hamas and IDF violence that gives the terrorists the power they have. If you want to break that cycle then you have to stop giving the terrorists their ammunition for propaganda. The two-state solution was the original plan, if you stick with that plan then you aren't letting them win because it predates them and it removes what they use to gain power.

[fredtoast]

(05-15-2018, 10:02 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Everyone knows how I feel about the “Palestinians”.    I just do not see how we can take them seriously when they choose leaders like Hamas and Abbas.   

The Palestinian Authority opposes Hammas.

Hammas just controls Gaza.  Palestinian National Authority controls the West Bank and other Palestinian areas.  They have been in conflict with Hammas for years.

[fredtoast]

It is easy to say "Let Israel wipe out the Palestinians", but that ignores that fact that Israel is surrounded by Arab countries that would make their existence miserable.

The United States gives Israel over 8 million dollars per day to prop them up. Seems like it would save us a lot of money to just let Russia and the Arab neighbors wipe out Israel.

What do you think of that plan Lucie? Pull the US money teat out of Israel's mouth and see how long they survive on their own.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-15-2018, 11:03 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Your comparison is flawed. Telling the Palestinians to "go back to Jordan" would be like telling the indigenous people from within the modern U.S. to "go back to Canada or Mexico." You're telling them to go back somewhere that they didn't come from.


If the two-state solution were implemented and negotiated, the Palestinians likely wouldn't end up with terrorist leaders. The reason they put those people in power is because Israel gives them ammunition through their continued settlement building and violence. It is a perpetual cycle of violence from Hamas and IDF violence that gives the terrorists the power they have. If you want to break that cycle then you have to stop giving the terrorists their ammunition for propaganda. The two-state solution was the original plan, if you stick with that plan then you aren't letting them win because it predates them and it removes what they use to gain power.

I used to think the two state solution was best. It’s a naive fantasy. If we want to break the cycle we need cut off all funds to the Palestinians. Why we give them Money is beyond me.

One state under Israeli control where Muslims do quite well btw. They are 18% of the population.

Thank God I am not going to Miami this week, there is always some Palestinian nonsense going on and holding up traffic.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-15-2018, 10:57 AM)GMDino Wrote: I feel the same way about Israel.

They have normal well reasoned leadership.