Violence at Israeli-Gazan Border

[Dill]

(05-18-2018, 07:45 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here is a good read on this topic: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/262329/gaza-media-explainer

It's a very balanced perspective, which is missing from most reporting on the topic.

Thanks for posting that, Bels.

I wouldn't say it was "balanced," but Rosenberg is more balanced that most and certainly balancing in effect, given the current hatefest of Palestinians in the pro-Trump media.

It is true that the "Nakba" protest is a planned, yearly event.  Both MSNBC and CNN have explained this. But moving the US embassy to Jerusalem three days before the event--thereby signalling the US abandonment of any pretense to impartial broker of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict--certainly accounts for the massive size of this demonstration.  The US wanted to time the move for Jerusalem Day, sure, and probably most of the Trump diplomatic team neither suspected nor cared what the fallout might be.

I have yet to read something in the press that, by my lights, gets the role and nature of Hamas right.  Lacking is generally any accurate understanding of the rise of Hamas and its correlation with the lock down of Gaza since 2005. I don't think it unfair to say Hamas has been a boon to Israeli PR, and they will keep it that way if they can.

I do appreciate that Rosenberg and the folks at Tablet.  They posted Ehud Barak's fascinating excerpt from My Country, My Life of Israeli-Iranian relations and the Obama deal. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/261768/ehud-barak-obama.  

[Belsnickel]

(05-18-2018, 09:03 PM)Dill Wrote: Thanks for posting that, Bels.

I wouldn't say it was "balanced," but Rosenberg is more balanced that most and certainly balancing in effect, given the current hatefest of Palestinians in the pro-Trump media.

It is true that the "Nakba" protest is a planned, yearly event.  Both MSNBC and CNN have explained this. But moving the US embassy to Jerusalem three days before the event--thereby signalling the US abandonment of any pretense to impartial broker of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict--certainly accounts for the massive size of this demonstration.  The US wanted to time the move for Jerusalem Day, sure, and probably most of the Trump diplomatic team neither suspected nor cared what the fallout might be.

I have yet to read something in the press that, by my lights, gets the role and nature of Hamas right.  Lacking is generally any accurate understanding of the rise of Hamas and its correlation with the lock down of Gaza since 2005. I don't think it unfair to say Hamas has been a boon to Israeli PR, and they will keep it that way if they can.

I do appreciate that Rosenberg and the folks at Tablet.  They posted Ehud Barak's fascinating excerpt from My Country, My Life of Israeli-Iranian relations and the Obama deal. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/261768/ehud-barak-obama.  

I think one of the things that frustrates me in discussions around Gaza and Hamas is when people don't really understand the authoritarian ways of Hamas. Since they have taken power, they haven't allowed for elections to take place. They shot a young man in the kneecaps in the center of town for making an anti-Hamas post on social media. They terrorize the people of Gaza as much or more than they do Israel based on what I am given to understand from people who have spent time there.

It is one of the things that many don't seem to understand. The Palestinians in Gaza are essentially caged in with one dangerous group and on the other side is another dangerous group. They are in a rock and hard place scenario and the world has all but abandoned them.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-18-2018, 09:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think one of the things that frustrates me in discussions around Gaza and Hamas is when people don't really understand the authoritarian ways of Hamas. Since they have taken power, they haven't allowed for elections to take place. They shot a young man in the kneecaps in the center of town for making an anti-Hamas post on social media. They terrorize the people of Gaza as much or more than they do Israel based on what I am given to understand from people who have spent time there.

It is one of the things that many don't seem to understand. The Palestinians in Gaza are essentially caged in with one dangerous group and on the other side is another dangerous group. They are in a rock and hard place scenario and the world has all but abandoned them.

All excellent, and true, points.  I would add that Hamas is motivated by both reclamation of land and virulent antisemitism.  

[Dill]

(05-18-2018, 07:48 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: This is directly from friends of ours, who live in Israel, she is a childhood friend of my wife’s.  

So according to your article... for 4 and a half hours on the intermediate days of a holiday th jews are only allowed to pray at their most holy location.  

This is basically what I stated. 

Basically what you stated is this:

(05-15-2018, 10:45 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Israeli controlled areas allow other religions to be practiced at holy sites.   Muslim controlled areas do not allow other religions to be practiced at holy sites.

You stated "MUSLIMS" do not allow other religions to be practiced.

But The Temple Mount is controlled by Israel. They are the ones who control who worships there. Not "Muslims."

So far as I know, Muslims don't restrict any religious worship in their districts. E.g. Christians worship freely in many churches, and many Palestinian "terrorists" are Christian.

Therefore, what you stated was false on two counts. And you further blame Muslims for "not allowing other religions to be practiced" in territories Israelis control when it's the Israelis who regulate worship there. 

The only "control" in Muslim areas that I am aware of is that Israeli citizens are forbidden, by mutual agreement, from visiting  some areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority.  Check out this sign at the entrance to Area A around Bethlehem. So probably a Jew could not worship in a Christian church there--but by Israeli, not Palestinian law.

[*michaelsean*]

The enigma machine has met its match.

[Dill]

(05-18-2018, 09:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think one of the things that frustrates me in discussions around Gaza and Hamas is when people don't really understand the authoritarian ways of Hamas. Since they have taken power, they haven't allowed for elections to take place. They shot a young man in the kneecaps in the center of town for making an anti-Hamas post on social media. They terrorize the people of Gaza as much or more than they do Israel based on what I am given to understand from people who have spent time there.

It is one of the things that many don't seem to understand. The Palestinians in Gaza are essentially caged in with one dangerous group and on the other side is another dangerous group. They are in a rock and hard place scenario and the world has all but abandoned them.

I am in whole-hearted agreement with your last point. Without disagreeing with your first point, however, I'd like to tweak it a bit.

I haven't noticed any dearth of reporting on the authoritarianism of Hamas. Some may be reluctant to criticize them in the usual contextless, ahistorical fashion because 1) it's doubtful there would be a Hamas, or that it would have its present form, were it not for the special isolation/imprisonment of Gaza under the occupation, and 2) the picture of Evil Hamas using human shields and paying martyrs and the like supports an Israeli narrative that the effect is really the cause of Gazan imprisonment. 

One could make an analogy to Hezbollah here. As I think you know, before the Israeli invasion in 1982, the Shia of Southern Lebanon were largely represented by Amal, which means "hope" in Arabic. And the organization itself was secular and liberal-tolerant. The founders of Hezbollah constituted a minor sect with few followers. The Israeli invasion massively disrupted security in Lebanon, in the period which followed, Hezbollah formed a religiously themed resistance which proved more effective, and rapidly drew followers from Amal. They became in effect a state within a state, supplying food, medical services and schooling to Lebanese Shia.  Constantly under siege, they have become somewhat totalitarian, a "martyr worship" state. And very effective in their resistance to Israel. But no Israeli invasion in 1982 and there is no Iran-Assad allied Hezbollah in 2018. Hamas offers a Sunni version of this process, but one which has developed under much more severe constraints.  I can make similar analogies to ethnic-religious groups like Yemeni Houthi and Pashtu Taliban, which evolved under conditions of extreme insecurity.

So I am always ready to acknowledge the excesses of Hamas, but not to discuss them as if they proceeded from some essential nature of Palestinians or Islam. People living in Gaza really are like inmates in US prisons, forced to join one gang or another for protection or survival. Imagine whole families--including children--condemned to life in prison. And the sentence looks to extend to generations as yet unborn. There is a mass pathology there, for sure, but "bad leaders" are not the root cause.  It is not in the interest of Israel to stop that pathology, but to intensify it and insure press coverage. That's what we need to understand, if we want the peace process to work.

[Dill]

(05-18-2018, 07:43 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Israel is not a terrorist nation.  They are not trying to wipe anyone from the planet.   If they were we would have been done with this Palestinian nonsense years ago.    The Palestinians however want a genocide.   Israel is a normal Nation who has used its resources to develop and grow a defense system.   Palestinians have wasted their money on enriching their leaders and their families.    

I don’t care about their religion or race.   If the poor Palestinians wanted peace they would have it today.    Instead they want to keep pushing until they just kill all the Jews.     They arE by definition terrorists.  Which is why I am beyond caring about Palestinians.   I wish Israel would wipe them out and put them on the run.  The problem is Israel doesn’t want to be forced dealing with the people in There who just love living in shanty towns.

What "normal" nation holds millions prisoner while it systematically strips them of their land?

The last model for that normality was South Africa. 

I don't think Palestinians willingly gave up their farms and homes to live in shanty towns. They had to be driven into those towns military force in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.

But I don't want to stray from my question. What makes a Palestinian a "terrorist" for defending his home while the Israeli soldiers who bulldoze it are doing what "normal" nations do?  

Your say that Palestinians just are terrorists "by definition"--but what is the definition? You still have not given me that.

Would you be a terrorist if Israelis wanted bulldoze your home and you defended it? Maybe answering that question is the best way to lay groundwork for a definition.  A first step at least.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-18-2018, 11:17 PM)Dill Wrote: What "normal" nation holds millions prisoner while it systematically strips them of their land?

The last model for that normality was South Africa. 

I don't think Palestinians willingly gave up their farms and homes to live in shanty towns. They had to be driven into those towns military force in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.

But I don't want to stray from my question. What makes a Palestinian a "terrorist" for defending his home while the Israeli soldiers who bulldoze it are doing what "normal" nations do?  

Your say that Palestinians just are terrorists "by definition"--but what is the definition? You still have not given me that.

Would you be a terrorist if Israelis wanted bulldoze your home and you defended it? Maybe answering that question is the best way to lay groundwork for a definition.  A first step at least.

This is a terrible analogy. I live in an actual country. Palestine is somewhere between Wakando and Narnia. It’s a made up country for made up people.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-18-2018, 09:35 PM)Dill Wrote: Basically what you stated is this:


You stated "MUSLIMS" do not allow other religions to be practiced.

But The Temple Mount is controlled by Israel. They are the ones who control who worships there. Not "Muslims."

So far as I know, Muslims don't restrict any religious worship in their districts. E.g. Christians worship freely in many churches, and many Palestinian "terrorists" are Christian.

Therefore, what you stated was false on two counts. And you further blame Muslims for "not allowing other religions to be practiced" in territories Israelis control when it's the Israelis who regulate worship there. 

The only "control" in Muslim areas that I am aware of is that Israeli citizens are forbidden, by mutual agreement, from visiting  some areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority.  Check out this sign at the entrance to Area A around Bethlehem. So probably a Jew could not worship in a Christian church there--but by Israeli, not Palestinian law.

Last I checked the Islamic waqf was indeed Muslims and it’s controlled by Muslims.

Israeli law is also there to prevent israeli’s from going into the slaughterhouse. This just shows how much Israel tries to accommodate the Muslims. If the Islamic waqf alllowed israelis then there would be no Need for Israel to protect Israelis with that policy.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-18-2018, 11:17 PM)Dill Wrote: What "normal" nation holds millions prisoner while it systematically strips them of their land?

The last model for that normality was South Africa. 

Anti-Israeli activists comparing Israel to South Africa is the ploitical equivalent of those who compared homosexuality to pedophilia.  I'm not at all shocked to see you engage in it.

[Dill]

(05-21-2018, 11:05 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: This is a terrible analogy.  I live in an actual country.  Palestine is somewhere between Wakando and Narnia.  It’s a made up country for made up people.

And yet You don't seem to think Palestinians are a "made up" people when you call them terrorists for defending their land.

When it comes to land the Israelis want, you acknowledge there are Palestinians, and that they have or had land and homes, which you claim are just better off under Israeli ownership. 

If you don't agree with the legal premise that all human beings have human rights, among these right to life, liberty and property, if your premise is rather that some ethnic groups are "naturally" more deserving of rights than others, then there is no legal problem here. Israel is an ethnic state premised upon ethnic, not universal, rights, as was South Africa--a settler state founded by Europeans who seized land by force from people who had lived there for millenia.  Under that sort of tribalist, pre-Enlightment conception of law, there is nothing illegal about people who deserve land (in their own eyes) taking it from those who don't.

Once the universal rights are denied, then the only right is the right of the stronger--no right at all, really, just power.

If you agree to the premise of universal human rights--regardless of race, religion or ethnicity--then there is no legal/political justification for taking other people's land while holding millions of them under a military occupation.

If you thought that rights were universal, and that Palestinians are as real as the land whose appropriation you defend, you should have no problem imagining what it would be like in my example of someone bulldozing your home. If you don't think rights are universal, then empathizing with "animals" who have no rights is pointless.

So we are back to that "first step" I mentioned in the previous post.  Are Palestinians covered by the concept of universal human rights or not?
Once I get you response to that, then that will clear up all the smoke created by trying to have it both ways.

[Dill]

(05-21-2018, 11:07 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Last I checked the Islamic waqf was indeed Muslims and it’s controlled by Muslims.

Israeli law is also there to prevent israeli’s from going into the slaughterhouse.  This just shows how much Israel tries to accommodate the Muslims.  If the Islamic waqf alllowed israelis then there would be no Need for Israel to protect Israelis with that policy.

"Controlled by Muslims" but "Israeli law is also there."  

That means the Trust maintains the site and Israeli police trump all Palestinian/Jordanian authority.

This just shows how little control Palestinians have over their own land holy sites. While Israelis simply rob Palestinians of their land, you accuse Muslim's of not allowing "other religions" to be practiced. Just false. Bethlehem, for example, is a center of Christian worship for Palestinian and non-Palestinian Christians. The root problem is still dispossession of Palestinians by force.

You are right that the site is contested, though. Palestinians fear that the Israelis plan to destroy the Al Aqsa and Dome of the Rock to make way for a new temple.

An additional note: most Christians would not be happy if Muslims used their churches to pray. Imagine a hundred Muslims regularly praying in the Sistine Chapel or the National Cathedral in Washington DC.  Jews and Muslims might not be happy if Catholics took their communion in a Synagogue or Mosque respectively.  The difficulty with the Temple Mount site is that it is a place claimed holy by three religions with a history of intolerance.  For Muslims, TM politics are a barometer of the Judaization of Muslim sites and culture in Jerusalem.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-21-2018, 12:49 PM)Dill Wrote: "Controlled by Muslims" but "Israeli law is also there."  

That means the Trust maintains the site and Israeli police trump all Palestinian/Jordanian authority.

This just shows how little control Palestinians have over their own land holy sites. While Israelis simply rob Palestinians of their land, you accuse Muslim's of not allowing "other religions" to be practiced. Just false. Bethlehem, for example, is a center of Christian worship for Palestinian and non-Palestinian Christians. The root problem is still dispossession of Palestinians by force.

You are right that the site is contested, though. Palestinians fear that the Israelis plan to destroy the Al Aqsa and Dome of the Rock to make way for a new temple.

An additional note: most Christians would not be happy if Muslims used their churches to pray. Imagine a hundred Muslims regularly praying in the Sistine Chapel or the National Cathedral in Washington DC.  Jews and Muslims might not be happy if Catholics took their communion in a Synagogue or Mosque respectively.  The difficulty with the Temple Mount site is that it is a place claimed holy by three religions with a history of intolerance.  For Muslims, TM politics are a barometer of the Judaization of Muslim sites and culture in Jerusalem.

Israeli law is there because the Muslims will kill the israeli’s who go to pray there.... They know the Muslims can not be trusted to not just kill them.

It’s not hard to have that place be a violence free zone. Too bad the terrorist leaders of the Palestinians are interested in any form of peace.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-21-2018, 12:22 PM)Dill Wrote:
And yet You don't seem to think Palestinians are a "made up" people when you call them terrorists for defending their land.

When it comes to land the Israelis want, you acknowledge there are Palestinians, and that they have or had land and homes, which you claim are just better off under Israeli ownership. 

If you don't agree with the legal premise that all human beings have human rights, among these right to life, liberty and property, if your premise is rather that some ethnic groups are "naturally" more deserving of rights than others, then there is no legal problem here. Israel is an ethnic state premised upon ethnic, not universal, rights, as was South Africa--a settler state founded by Europeans who seized land by force from people who had lived there for millenia.  Under that sort of tribalist, pre-Enlightment conception of law, there is nothing illegal about people who deserve land (in their own eyes) taking it from those who don't.

Once the universal rights are denied, then the only right is the right of the stronger--no right at all, really, just power.

If you agree to the premise of universal human rights--regardless of race, religion or ethnicity--then there is no legal/political justification for taking other people's land while holding millions of them under a military occupation.

If you thought that rights were universal, and that Palestinians are as real as the land whose appropriation you defend, you should have no problem imagining what it would be like in my example of someone bulldozing your home. If you don't think rights are universal, then empathizing with "animals" who have no rights is pointless.

So we are back to that "first step" I mentioned in the previous post.  Are Palestinians covered by the concept of universal human rights or not?
Once I get you response to that, then that will clear up all the smoke created by trying to have it both ways.

I called the Palestinians terrorists because they elect terrorists to lead them.

I do not believe the palestianians are an actual group of people. Where do you think their origins go back? The are a made up group to be a pain in
The side to Israel. As I said they are located between wakando and Narnia.

I believe in human rights. Which is why I think these palestinaians should just be moved out and sent back to Jordan and Egypt. They have proven they have no ability to take care of themselves and they aren’t interested in any form of peace. A two stare solution sounds great but you need two groups willing to sign up for that, unfortunately Israel has been on its own bending over backwards to help the Palestinians towards an end. Now it’s clear the only solution is a one state, Israel led solution. Israel is showing they can work with Muslims.

[Belsnickel]

(05-21-2018, 04:50 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I called the Palestinians terrorists because they elect terrorists to lead them.

Well, there hasn't been an election in Gaza in over a decade. So really, they don't elect terrorists to lead them.

(05-21-2018, 04:50 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I do not believe the palestianians are an actual group of people. Where do you think their origins go back? The are a made up group to be a pain in
The side to Israel. As I said they are located between wakando and Narnia.

You do understand that in addition to Gaza and the West Bank, that what is now called Israel was called Palestine, right? The reason these people are called Palestinians is because that is the name of the land they had and the name of the expected state in a two-state solution.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-21-2018, 05:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, there hasn't been an election in Gaza in over a decade. So really, they don't elect terrorists to lead them.


You do understand that in addition to Gaza and the West Bank, that what is now called Israel was called Palestine, right? The reason these people are called Palestinians is because that is the name of the land they had and the name of the expected state in a two-state solution.

Great Britain gave up that mandate in 1948, which was never acted upon... As they should have considering the attack of Arab countries on Israel.

Israel won. They get the lands. If Arabs wanted a Palestinian land then they shouldn’t have marched 5 armies to wipe out Israel. Now the Palestinian land is a fantasy. It was a nice idea but obviously these people arent capable of having any lands, they can’t even choose normal leaders.



They lost. They can Stop complaining and wasting everyone’s time.

As for their lack of elections...... this is exactly why none of them can be trusted.

[Belsnickel]

(05-21-2018, 06:05 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: They lost. They can Stop complaining and wasting everyone’s time.

I always find it interesting when people take this stance for things where they side with the victors, yet if they were or sided with the losers they advocate doing whatever they can to turn things around.

(05-21-2018, 06:05 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: As for their lack of elections...... this is exactly why none of them can be trusted.

This makes zero sense.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-21-2018, 06:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I always find it interesting when people take this stance for things where they side with the victors, yet if they were or sided with the losers they advocate doing whatever they can to turn things around.


This makes zero sense.

When you lose you are supposed to walk away and regroup. Accept your loss. And learn from it. The Palestinians just loiter and allow themselves to be Led by terrorists. Israel wins all the time because they built up their defenses, they spent their money wisely, instead Of ignoring their people so a few can get rich.

Why does it make zero sense? Maybe instead Of Worrying about Israel how about a civil war to overthrow Hamas and Abbas.

[Belsnickel]

(05-21-2018, 07:08 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: When you lose you are supposed to walk away and regroup. Accept your loss. And learn from it. The Palestinians just loiter and allow themselves to be Led by terrorists. Israel wins all the time because they built up their defenses, they spent their money wisely, instead Of ignoring their people so a few can get rich.

Why does it make zero sense? Maybe instead Of Worrying about Israel how about a civil war to overthrow Hamas and Abbas.

A civil war with what? The people are blockaded by Israel and anything that does get in goes through Hamas first.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-21-2018, 07:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: A civil war with what? The people are blockaded by Israel and anything that does get in goes through Hamas first.

Then they should leave. Go back to Jordan and Egypt. The innocents need to step up. Once they leave Hamas and Abbas can be bombed out of there by Israel. Israel will let those people leave.

At that point they can apply for citizenship in Israel and go through normal processes. They will be able to live like every other Arab in israel. Normally.