Why does he refuse to condemn them?

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 01:48 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think the thing is that it was a pretty weak answer for people who believe he is racist. If someone doesn’t think he is racist, then his answer seems fine. Sure, he said he would do it. However, if someone has the belief he is racist or they are on the fence about him being racist, it was a really weak answer that didn’t do anything to dispel that notion and has added fuel to that fire. I really think he missed an opportunity there to really kill that idea.

The average voter likely isn’t going to know that he has called racism evil and condemned groups like this before, and he had a softball of an opportunity to really nail it home before the election, on national TV. He just missed it, and he is needing help right now.

Agreed. And it's odd that Trump has not prepared a clear, unambiguous statement on white supremacy, ready to go for debates and interviews, isn't it? 

It's not like he just started campaigning and he was taken by surprise in his first interview.

"Sure, I’m will to do that. . . I’m willing to do anything. I want to see peace. I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing not from the right wing. . . . Stand back and stand by."

Trump supporters heard him "plainly" denounce white supremacy in there--once they correct for "misspeak." Again.

But suppose you are a person who hadn't thought one way or the other about Trump's racism--then you heard that answer, from someone who's been running for office for five years, and has flubbed the question before? The moderator and the opponent had to shape the response for him, suggesting which groups to denounce and what language to use. 

If you are that person fresh to the issue, can your impression really be that of a plain and sincere denunciation?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-30-2020, 01:40 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I take issue with characterizing that as whataboutism as I directed him back to the topic: white supremacists. He brought up left wing violence as an excuse to not condemn right wing violence. I do not think that what he did was whataboutism either, though I made it clear I disagreed with it being used as an excuse to not condemn white supremacists.

You know what, that's fair.  I don't think anyone here disagrees with condemning white supremacists, or race based hatred from any group.

Quote:I think pointing to non ideological crime may fall under the same category but I think going down that road gets away from the topic at hand.

Also fair.  My biggest issue with the "biggest domestic terrorist threat" point, and this occurs here and many other places, is the, IMO often deliberate, mischaracterization of what the report actually states.  I won't go into that further as I explained my position above.

Quote:To your comment at the end, I agree but I also think it doesn't get thrown around enough regarding some groups. Proud Boys isn't a white supremacist group, they're certainly a western nationalist group though. That said, they have a lot of ties and crossover with actual supremacist groups, and we shouldn't discount the role that the ideology plays in that community as a whole. A lot of dishonesty went into trying to characterize the Unite the Right rally as not being a White supremacist event, which it absolutely was. 

That's an interesting counter point.  I will agree that there are some groups that deserve it that don't receive the label.  I also think it's quickly slapped on groups that are just patriotic or pro western culture.  This is the main reason why I put no stock in the opinions or pronouncements of the SPLC or ADF, they are very quick to label ideological opponents as racist.  Not only does it dilute the impact of the accusation, it actually harms the credibility of the one making it, making future, accurate accusations, less impactful or not impactful at all.

[Benton]

(09-30-2020, 11:24 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: ANTIFA

Biden refused to admit they exist. ANTIFA is rioting, looting and killing people. Don't be stupid, white Supremists groups have not done the damage ANTIFA and BLM have, both are left wing radical groups.

Trump denounced the KKK also, Biden has not denounced any terrorist group on the left. Why? He and his buddies fund them to burn down america

BTW, Wallace is a joke and we saw it last night. He asks set up questions for Trump about taxes, but ignores the role Biden played in a peaceful transfer by allowing HRC and the DNC to pay Russians to go after Trump and his team. Obama knew it, Bidne knew back in July of 2016 but did nothing to stop it, in fact weaponized the DOJ and the FBI to perpetuate the lies. 

I only know of one guy who was suspected to be involved with antifa who allegedly committed murder, and we probably won't know for sure as he was killed. There have been at least two self identified boogaloo boys arrested in connection with murder and more charges.

At this point, I don't see how anyone can keep a score card of who is doing worse, alt right or allegations of antifa.

[BmorePat87]

(09-30-2020, 02:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You know what, that's fair.  I don't think anyone here disagrees with condemning white supremacists, or race based hatred from any group.



Also fair.  My biggest issue with the "biggest domestic terrorist threat" point, and this occurs here and many other places, is the, IMO often deliberate, mischaracterization of what the report actually states.  I won't go into that further as I explained my position above.


That's an interesting counter point.  I will agree that there are some groups that deserve it that don't receive the label.  I also think it's quickly slapped on groups that are just patriotic or pro western culture.  This is the main reason why I put no stock in the opinions or pronouncements of the SPLC or ADF, they are very quick to label ideological opponents as racist.  Not only does it dilute the impact of the accusation, it actually harms the credibility of the one making it, making future, accurate accusations, less impactful or not impactful at all.

I think the Unite the Right rally is a good example of how it hasn't been used enough. It was organized by two known Neo Nazis, Jason Kessler and Richard Spencer. Kessler got booted from the Proud Boys for being too much of a white supremacist and lined up David Duke to speak at the 2nd rally he was planning. Spencer has called for the US and Europe to be white-ethnic nations and has praised the US Nazi party. 

So when someone suggests that there's nothing wrong with saying there's fine people on that side, it's either dishonest or ignorant. When two Neo Nazis organize an event and lead a chant of "Jews will not replace us", no fine person stays because they really support Robert E Lee. When people are standing on your side with Nazi flags, no fine person says "yea, this is my side even if there's Nazis". In that case, the label hadn't been applied enough.

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 01:53 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Trump didn't misspeak. His words were twisted into something that he didn't say.

Anyone that hears or reads that and thinks he's saying there were fine white supremacists is clearly making shit up.

You cut off the lead in . . .

Reporter: "The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest --"

Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name." https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/apr/26/context-trumps-very-fine-people-both-sides-remarks/

How much "twisting" is really required here, for anyone who can follow pronoun reference? And why the "both sidesism", the need to say "bad people on the other side as well"?  The best you can get from this is that Trump muddled his grammar/thinking, confused or conflated groups. And when he was supposed to be clarifying a previous unclarity. Racism or incompetence?

Leading back to my point. If you are a national leader with this problem, you can fix it if you really want to. Make sure that in the next interview or speech, and during the coming election you have a definitive statement, backed by a policy.

"I denounce white supremacy without reserve. It has no place American and not in my administration. You support white supremacy in my administration and 'YOU'RE FIRED'."  Doubtful anyone could spin that against him--unless he controverted his words by hiring alt-righters as part of hid White House staff.

But that's not Trump's situation. Last night he needed help from Biden and Wallace to get a weak denunciation.

If Wallace asked Trump to denounce "the Left," would Trump have asked "Ok what do you want me to say? Name some groups? ANTIFA stand back and stand by!"

[NATI BENGALS]

I can’t listen to the man speak for very long. Generally if he is talking I change the source. Last night was one of the few exceptions other than state of the unions of the last few years. On the race issue he absolutely blew it.

He wasn’t even lobbed a softball. It was set up sitting on a tee for him to hit. He missed to the horror of most intelligent people. While his staunchest supporters will try to convince that he hit a home run, they are just living in make believe land like usual.

[BmorePat87]

(09-30-2020, 02:37 PM)Dill Wrote: You cut off the lead in . . .

Reporter: "The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest --"

Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name."https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/apr/26/context-trumps-very-fine-people-both-sides-remarks/

How much "twisting" is really required here, for anyone who can follow pronoun reference? And why the "both sidesism", the need to say "bad people on the other side as well"?  The best you can get from this is that Trump muddled his explanation, confused or conflated groups. And when he was supposed to be clarifying a previous unclarity. Racism or incompetence?

Leading back to my point. If you are a national leader with this problem, you can fix it if you really want to. Make sure that in the next interview or speech, and during the coming election you have a definitive statement, backed by a policy.

"I denounce white supremacy without reserve. It has no place American and not in my administration. You support white supremacy in my administration and 'YOU'RE FIRED."  Doubtful anyone could spin that against him--unless he controverted his words by hiring alt-righters as part of hid White House staff.

But that's not Trump's situation. Last night he needed help from Biden and Wallace to get a weak denunciation.

If Wallace asked Trump to denounce "the Left," would Trump have asked "Ok what do you want me to say? Name some groups? ANTIFA stand back and stand by!"

I just mentioned this above. It was literally organized by known Neo Nazis. I don't know any fine people who willingly go to Neo Nazi events.

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 02:43 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I just mentioned this above. It was literally organized by known Neo Nazis. I don't know any fine people who willingly go to Neo Nazi events.

Of course there some.

They were the ones carrying tikki torches but not shouting "Jews will not replace us!"

They were only there to defend their heritage--statues commemorating white supremacy.

Then "the left" came with clubs and violence. Very bad people in that group. There to denounce white supremacy.

[BmorePat87]

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/518936-tim-scott-trump-should-correct-his-debate-comments-on-white-supremacists?fbclid=IwAR07AnPSRr4Q-No9201Ar8Ngmk_OlzIP0YNtQbS0KTke_IQP0DIp0JaUY_w&fbclid=IwAR0eyLNFtInUuBjZ3KUyUWXS9SZpWC-b-P5gk4a0_nkLXxSbB_zSiY87iYA

Tim Scott suggested that Trump should "correct" the comment, saying he believes Trump "misspoke" and said that if Trump doesn't correct it then maybe Trump didn't misspeak.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-30-2020, 02:34 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I think the Unite the Right rally is a good example of how it hasn't been used enough. It was organized by two known Neo Nazis, Jason Kessler and Richard Spencer. Kessler got booted from the Proud Boys for being too much of a white supremacist and lined up David Duke to speak at the 2nd rally he was planning. Spencer has called for the US and Europe to be white-ethnic nations and has praised the US Nazi party. 

So when someone suggests that there's nothing wrong with saying there's fine people on that side, it's either dishonest or ignorant. When two Neo Nazis organize an event and lead a chant of "Jews will not replace us", no fine person stays because they really support Robert E Lee. When people are standing on your side with Nazi flags, no fine person says "yea, this is my side even if there's Nazis". In that case, the label hadn't been applied enough.

Your position is remarkably similar to mine in regards to the current protests, although that has less to do with the organizers (if there are any) and more to do with the participants.  If I show up at what I believe to be a patriotic rally and I see Nazi flags I'm instantly out of there.  If I show up at an anti-police brutality rally and people start throwing thigs at the police, vandalizing or looting then I'm instantly out of there.  Once either of those things start happening and you're still there you're not "very fine people" in my book.

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 01:25 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: lol lcicked on that link, it's been taken down already.

LOL More "misunderstanding"?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-30-2020, 02:30 PM)Benton Wrote: I only know of one guy who was suspected to be involved with antifa who allegedly committed murder, and we probably won't know for sure as he was killed. There have been at least two self identified boogaloo boys arrested in connection with murder and more charges.

Benson, come on.  That guy was a self proclaimed antifa supporter.  There's no room for doubt there.  As for the "boogaloo boys", the Rittenhouse homicides is one of the clearest cases of self defense I've ever seen on film.

Quote:At this point, I don't see how anyone can keep a score card of who is doing worse, alt right or allegations of antifa.

How about we all, media included, admit they both suck and treat them both with equal measures of disdain?  It would also be nice if the DA's of certain jurisdictions would charge them with criminal conduct in equal measure as well.

[*bfine32*]

(09-30-2020, 01:48 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think the thing is that it was a pretty weak answer for people who believe he is racist. If someone doesn’t think he is racist, then his answer seems fine. Sure, he said he would do it. However, if someone has the belief he is racist or they are on the fence about him being racist, it was a really weak answer that didn’t do anything to dispel that notion and has added fuel to that fire. I really think he missed an opportunity there to really kill that idea.

The average voter likely isn’t going to know that he has called racism evil and condemned groups like this before, and he had a softball of an opportunity to really nail it home before the election, on national TV. He just missed it, and he is needing help right now.

I don't think any answer would have sufficed for people who believe he's a racist and this thread is a perfect example.

"Will you condemn White Supremacists"

"I do"

"Well that's pretty weak"

This doesn't mention that he has categorically condemned White Supremacists in the past, But much like now when folks want to focus on his saying Stand By as opposed to Stand Down, folks back then focused on "Good people on both sides".

The truly appalling part of the open exchange was when Trump asked is anybody willing to condemn Antifa and Biden said "they're an idea" and then Wallace ended the open discussion at that point. All the while American cities burn. 

[samhain]

Same reason a lot of non-Trump voters on the right don't denounce Trump. Same reason some folks try to characterize all protestors as being on the level of Al Qaeda. Same reason school shooters are no big deal and right wing terrorists aren't an issue to the right.

All that matters iz smashin' duh libzz, duh! Well, that, wearing tacticool valor-stealing cosplay outfits, and finding new ways to display their love for The Punisher skull.

Stop worrying about Neo-Nazis and facists. They barely exist according to some. Get super upset when someone punches a Nazi, though, lol. That's just uncivil.

As long as you hate liberals, any repulsive ideology is acceptable to the right.

[*bfine32*]

(09-30-2020, 02:50 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/518936-tim-scott-trump-should-correct-his-debate-comments-on-white-supremacists?fbclid=IwAR07AnPSRr4Q-No9201Ar8Ngmk_OlzIP0YNtQbS0KTke_IQP0DIp0JaUY_w&fbclid=IwAR0eyLNFtInUuBjZ3KUyUWXS9SZpWC-b-P5gk4a0_nkLXxSbB_zSiY87iYA

Tim Scott suggested that Trump should "correct" the comment, saying he believes Trump "misspoke" and said that if Trump doesn't correct it then maybe Trump didn't misspeak.

That's because he's rational. 

[*PhilHos*]

(09-30-2020, 02:37 PM)Dill Wrote: You cut off the lead in . . .

Reporter: "The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest --"

Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name."  https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/apr/26/context-trumps-very-fine-people-both-sides-remarks/

How much "twisting" is really required here, for anyone who can follow pronoun reference? And why the "both sidesism", the need to say "bad people on the other side as well"?  The best you can get from this is that Trump muddled his grammar/thinking, confused or conflated groups. And when he was supposed to be clarifying a previous unclarity. Racism or incompetence?

Leading back to my point. If you are a national leader with this problem, you can fix it if you really want to. Make sure that in the next interview or speech, and during the coming election you have a definitive statement, backed by a policy.

"I denounce white supremacy without reserve. It has no place American and not in my administration. You support white supremacy in my administration and 'YOU'RE FIRED'."  Doubtful anyone could spin that against him--unless he controverted his words by hiring alt-righters as part of hid White House staff.

But that's not Trump's situation. Last night he needed help from Biden and Wallace to get a weak denunciation.

If Wallace asked Trump to denounce "the Left," would Trump have asked "Ok what do you want me to say? Name some groups? ANTIFA stand back and stand by!"

I agree that Trump makes things more difficult for himself by not just unequivocally stating his denouncements but, again, he DID clearly state he wasn't talking about racists/neoNazis/white supremacists when he said there were "fine people" on both sides. 

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 02:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I don't think any answer would have sufficed for people who believe he's a racist and this thread is a perfect example.

"Will you condemn White Supremacists"

"I do"

"Well that's pretty weak"

This doesn't mention that he has categorically condemned White Supremacists in the past, But much like now when folks want to focus on his saying Stand By as opposed to Stand Down, folks back then focused on "Good people on both sides".

The truly appalling part of the open exchange was when Trump asked is anybody willing to condemn Antifa and Biden said "they're an idea" and then Wallace ended the open discussion at that point. All the while American cities burn. 

As well they should. Especially if represented as past "categorical condemnation" of white supremacy. 

And yes, "I do" is VERY weak.  But you're fine if it's coaxed out of him, then immediately muffled by questions about whom to condemn and a resounding "stand by" Proud Boys.  You stopped listening after "I do"? 

There is no good reason to believe Trump "mispoke" here any more than he did regarding neo-Nazis in Charlotte. That's just more damage control to preserve a counter-narrative--that Trump isn't really what he shows himself to be.

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 03:00 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I agree that Trump makes things more difficult for himself by not just unequivocally stating his denouncements but, again, he DID clearly state he wasn't talking about racists/neoNazis/white supremacists when he said there were "fine people" on both sides. 

Were the "fine people" among the neo-Nazis, marching with them as they chanted "Jews will not replace us"? 

[*PhilHos*]

(09-30-2020, 03:17 PM)Dill Wrote: Were the "fine people" among the neo-Nazis, marching with them as they chanted "Jews will not replace us"? 

Probably not. But I don't think it impossible to think that there were non-racists who didn't want the statues taken down and went to voice their opinion. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-30-2020, 02:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your position is remarkably similar to mine in regards to the current protests, although that has less to do with the organizers (if there are any) and more to do with the participants.  If I show up at what I believe to be a patriotic rally and I see Nazi flags I'm instantly out of there.  If I show up at an anti-police brutality rally and people start throwing thigs at the police, vandalizing or looting then I'm instantly out of there.  Once either of those things start happening and you're still there you're not "very fine people" in my book.

Agreed. We’ve seen protests this summer where the majority have called out people when it’s a few committing those acts (Like that time they saw a guy in black face trying to bash windows). We’ve also seen some where the majority are committing the acts. It’s not hard to condemn the illegal events.

I was in the city back during the Freddie Grey strife for an O’s game. My light rail got held up because some people broke away from the peaceful march and ran around Camden Yards throwing trash cans over at the outdoor bars and shit, throwing stuff at fans. Same deal. Credit to the marchers and condemnation to those rioting.