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(09-30-2020, 07:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Did he say he hates Muslims? Or is this a misquote?
Were they part of the Unite the Right rally?
Actually, antifa to be accurate. But antifa and BLM routinely commit acts of violence against the police. Does that mean they all hate the police?
I'm not talking about splitting hairs, I'm asking if the label is appropriate.
They hate women and homosexuals? I have not heard of this.
Their chairman attended the rally and said they cannot control which of their members go to events like that. Kessler was a member at the time.
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(09-30-2020, 08:20 PM)Dill Wrote: Ho ho, so I should "accept such a (partial) answer" instead looking at the whole answer and what follows, including supporters' behavior, and asserting that anything that doesn't fit my "agenda" is a mis statement.
You can accept what ever you want. But I accept when he states he condemns it twice in 2 days as he condemns it
But let's try one of those honesty checks around here:
Do you think Trump mis-spoke when he said stand by instead of stand down?
Now don't suddenly get the "I can't think" disease. Just answer the question.
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(09-30-2020, 08:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You can accept what ever you want. But I accept when he states he condemns it twice in 2 days as he condemns it
But let's try one of those honesty checks around here:
Do you think Trump mis-spoke when he said stand by instead of stand down?
Now don't suddenly get the "I can't think" disease. Just answer the question.
No Problem.
No, I don't think he misspoke when he told the Proud Boys to "stand back AND stand by."
Jeezus, like that's the easiest "honesty test" I've ever undergone.
Now your turn.
Do you think calling "stand by" a "misspeak" is a better fit for your agenda, or not?
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(09-30-2020, 08:37 PM)Dill Wrote: No Problem.
No, I don't think he misspoke when he told the Proud Boys to "stand back AND stand by."
Jeezus, like that's the easiest "honesty test" I've ever undergone.
Now your turn.
Do you think calling "stand by" a "misspeak" is a better fit for your agenda, or not?
Yes
Of course my agenda is to look for the truth.
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(09-30-2020, 08:29 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Shit like this does make me rethink my earlier comments. Given their founder's ideology, I am more willing to label them as flirting with Nazism.
"Western chauvinism" is a cover/euphemism for a race-based conception of civilization.
Think of it as a linguistic innovation which opens racist goals and sensibilities to otherwise closed venues and audiences.
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(09-30-2020, 07:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We don't have to play make believe.
What did Biden say when Antifa was brought up?
But to answer your question. Yes, I'd be satisfied.
He said last night that he was against defunding police, he was against the Green deal, ect...
So I take him at him word regardless what "proof" others bring up.
There are severe differences between Trump's white supremacy response and Biden's left violence response. I get you're implying they are pretty much the same, but they are not. For one, it didn't take Biden several aggressive questions before condemning. Second, Biden did not condemn by saying "Antifa, stand down and stand by". Third, it didn't take him until the next day to reconsider his condemnation.
Fourth, Trump lies all the time. This, imho, can not be seen as a statement based on bias. It is just what he demonstrably does. So yes I have less trust in Trump's word than in Biden's (or yours or pretty much anyone's). Trump earned this reputation fairly.
Also, the Proud Boys took it as an endorsement and I suppose still do after Trump's condemnation. See the logo they created based on Trump's words. One would think this would be reason enough to strengthen up the condemnation, so at least the condemned have a hunch they are condemned. Antifa won't consider Biden an ally in their violent goals (please don't claim they do because leftists leftists - they don't); Proud Boys or David Duke Richard Spencer etc. however sure see Trump as such and are not shy to publicly say so. There's a reason for that and it lies in the way Trump condemns. See above. Fifth.
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(09-30-2020, 07:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They hate women and homosexuals? I have not heard of this.
I am no longer shocked at what you have not heard.
https://www.advocate.com/crime/2019/10/23/proud-boys-sentenced-antigay-nyc-attack
Two members of the far-right Proud Boys who clashed with left-wing protesters outside a Republican club in New York City last year, reportedly while shouting homophobic slurs, have each been sentenced to four years in prison for their part in the brawl.
The fight began about 8:15 p.m., with Proud Boys members “brutally beating and kicking several individuals while shouting ‘fa**ot’ and ‘co**sucker,’
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(09-30-2020, 08:53 PM)hollodero Wrote: There are severe differences between Trump's white supremacy response and Biden's left violence response. I get you're implying they are pretty much the same, but they are not. For one, it didn't take Biden several aggressive questions before condemning. Second, Biden did not condemn by saying "Antifa, stand down and stand by". Third, it didn't take him until the next day to reconsider his condemnation.
Fourth, Trump lies all the time. This, imho, can not be seen as a statement based on bias. It is just what he demonstrably does. So yes I have less trust in Trump's word than in Biden's (or yours or pretty much anyone's). Trump earned this reputation fairly.
Also, the Proud Boys took it as an endorsement and I suppose still do after Trump's condemnation. See the logo they created based on Trump's words. One would think this would be reason enough to strengthen up the condemnation, so at least the condemned have a hunch they are condemned. Antifa won't consider Biden an ally in their violent goals (please don't claim they do because leftists leftists - they don't); Proud Boys or David Duke Richard Spencer etc. however sure see Trump as such and are not shy to publicly say so. There's a reason for that and it lies in the way Trump condemns. See above. Fifth.
It didn't take Trump "several aggressive questions before condemning". When he was originally asked the question last night he immediately and without hesitation said he condemns.
But for some reason A Yes was not good enough for Wallace and it's not good enough for many here.
As to Biden on Antifa he deflected and Wallace seemed to think that was good enough and it's good enough for many here.
As to the Proud Boys: I've already conceded many will use his gaff (although he clarified today) as grounds to support their agenda.
But we agree: There are several differences.
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(09-30-2020, 07:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Did he say he hates Muslims? Or is this a misquote?
Depends on how fine you want to split hairs.
He has said that "Muslims are stupid ... the only thing they really respect is violence and being tough.". He also has equated Islam with fascism, stating "Nazis are not a thing. Islam is a thing." In April 2018, McInnes labelled a significant section of Muslims as both mentally ill and incestuous, claiming that "Muslims have a problem with inbreeding. They tend to marry their first cousins... and that is a major problem [in the U.S.] because when you have mentally damaged inbreds – which not all Muslims are, but a disproportionate number are – and you have a hate book called the Koran... you end up with a perfect recipe for mass murder."
Sounds to me like he hates them. What do you think?
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(09-30-2020, 09:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It didn't take Trump "several aggressive questions before condemning". When he was originally asked the question last night he immediately and without hesitation said he condemns.
But for some reason A Yes was not good enough for Wallace and it's not good enough for many here.
As to Biden on Antifa he deflected and Wallace seemed to think that was good enough and it's good enough for many here.
As to the Proud Boys: I've already conceded many will use his gaff (although he clarified today) as grounds to support their agenda.
But we agree: There are several differences.
There's also the whole "someone got to do something about the left" part. But yeah, I have difficulties to grasp your take to begin with. Just so we're on the same page:
Chris Wallace: You have repeatedly criticized the vice president for not specifically calling out Antifa and other left wing extremist groups. But are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia group and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities as we saw in Kenosha and as we’ve seen in Portland.
President Donald J. Trump: Sure, I’m will to do that.
Chris Wallace: Are you prepared specifically to do it.
President Donald J. Trump: I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing not from the right wing.
Chris Wallace: But what are you saying?
President Donald J. Trump: I’m willing to do anything. I want to see peace.
Chris Wallace: Well, do it, sir.
Vice President Joe Biden: Say it, do it say it.
President Donald J. Trump: What do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me a name, go ahead who do you want me to condemn.
Chris Wallace: White supremacist and right-wing militia.
President Donald J. Trump: Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem this is a left wing.
Vice President Joe Biden: He’s own FBI Director said unlike white supremacist, Antifa is an idea not an organization-
President Donald J. Trump: Oh you got to be kidding me.
Vice President Joe Biden: … not a militia. That’s what his FBI Director said.
President Donald J. Trump: Well, then you know what, he’s wrong.
Chris Wallace: We’re done, sir. Moving onto the next… [crosstalk 00:42:46]
President Donald J. Trump: Antifa is bad.
Vice President Joe Biden: Every body in your administration tells you the true, it’s a bad idea. You have no idea about anything.
President Donald J. Trump: You know what, Antifa is a dangerous radical group.
...just to make sure you see a strong condemnation of white supremacists here. And that it did not take several attempts to make him specifically condemn. Imho he tried to avoid it, time and again deflect to Antifa, to the left, to something else before finally specifically condemning a group (he allegedly doesn't even know, so whew he made a blind condemnation here) by telling them to "stand down and stand by". Boy, why do they not feel condemned by that, I wonder.
Antifa, he thoroughly condemned them during that process, I giive him that. They are bad and dangerous and radical, there he finds those words. He never finds those clear words when it comes to white supremacists and the like.
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(09-30-2020, 09:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But for some reason A Yes was not good enough for Wallace and it's not good enough for many here.
And the thing you keep refusing to address is that it is not good enough for the violent alt-right and White supremacists either. They love him. Gavin McInnes often wears a Trump button in his videos. David Duke and his KKK buddies wear MAGA hats. Ben Shapiro has crowds screaming "Heil Trump". Confederate flags are flown at Trump rallies.
All of us on the left get it. All the guys in the violent alt-right and white supremacists groups get it. The Only ones who don't get it are Trumps base who blindly defend him no matter what he says.
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(09-30-2020, 09:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And the thing you keep refusing to address is that it is not good enough for the violent alt-right and White supremacists either. They love him. Gavin McInnes often wears a Trump button in his videos. David Duke and his KKK buddies wear MAGA hats. Ben Shapiro has crowds screaming "Heil Trump". Confederate flags are flown at Trump rallies.
All of us on the left get it. All the guys in the violent alt-right and white supremacists groups get it. The Only ones who don't get it are Trumps base who blindly defend him no matter what he says.
I've consistently conceded the White Supremacists have an agenda as well.
I've said Trump looked like a buffoon
I've said Trump lost the debate
I've said Trump most likely lost the White House
But in Liberal logic because I consider him saying "i condemn White Supremacists" as him saying he condemns White Supremacists; especially after clarifying his condemnation the next day then I'm "blindly defend him no matter what he says."
Does anyone know of a rational forum to discuss politics?
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(09-30-2020, 09:25 PM)hollodero Wrote: There's also the whole "someone got to do something about the left" part. But yeah, I have difficulties to grasp your take to begin with. Just so we're on the same page:
Chris Wallace: You have repeatedly criticized the vice president for not specifically calling out Antifa and other left wing extremist groups. But are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia group and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities as we saw in Kenosha and as we’ve seen in Portland.
President Donald J. Trump: Sure, I’m will to do that.
Chris Wallace: Are you prepared specifically to do it.
President Donald J. Trump: I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing not from the right wing.
Chris Wallace: But what are you saying?
President Donald J. Trump: I’m willing to do anything. I want to see peace.
Chris Wallace: Well, do it, sir.
Vice President Joe Biden: Say it, do it say it.
President Donald J. Trump: What do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me a name, go ahead who do you want me to condemn.
Chris Wallace: White supremacist and right-wing militia.
President Donald J. Trump: Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem this is a left wing.
Vice President Joe Biden: He’s own FBI Director said unlike white supremacist, Antifa is an idea not an organization-
President Donald J. Trump: Oh you got to be kidding me.
Vice President Joe Biden: … not a militia. That’s what his FBI Director said.
President Donald J. Trump: Well, then you know what, he’s wrong.
Chris Wallace: We’re done, sir. Moving onto the next… [crosstalk 00:42:46]
President Donald J. Trump: Antifa is bad.
Vice President Joe Biden: Every body in your administration tells you the true, it’s a bad idea. You have no idea about anything.
President Donald J. Trump: You know what, Antifa is a dangerous radical group.
...just to make sure you see a strong condemnation of white supremacists here. And that it did not take several attempts to make him specifically condemn. Imho he tried to avoid it, time and again deflect to Antifa, to the left, to something else before finally specifically condemning a group (he allegedly doesn't even know, so whew he made a blind condemnation here) by telling them to "stand down and stand by". Boy, why do they not feel condemned by that, I wonder.
Antifa, he thoroughly condemned them during that process, I giive him that. They are bad and dangerous and radical, there he finds those words. He never finds those clear words when it comes to white supremacists and the like.
et tu brute
Quit adding words to try and support your point. Where have I said Strong Condemnation? This place has jumped the shark. We can no longer discuss issues in earnest.
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(09-30-2020, 08:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am no longer shocked at what you have not heard.
https://www.advocate.com/crime/2019/10/23/proud-boys-sentenced-antigay-nyc-attack
Two members of the far-right Proud Boys who clashed with left-wing protesters outside a Republican club in New York City last year, reportedly while shouting homophobic slurs, have each been sentenced to four years in prison for their part in the brawl.
The fight began about 8:15 p.m., with Proud Boys members “brutally beating and kicking several individuals while shouting ‘fa**ot’ and ‘co**sucker,’
Wait, so two members engaged in a homophobic attack and the entire organization is homophobic? It's interesting you don't apply the same standards to BLM and antifa. And by interesting I mean predictable as hell. 
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(09-30-2020, 07:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Actually, antifa to be accurate.
Wrong.
BLM is accurate.
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/proud-boys-attack-black-lives-matter-protester-video/
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(09-30-2020, 09:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Depends on how fine you want to split hairs.
He has said that "Muslims are stupid ... the only thing they really respect is violence and being tough.". He also has equated Islam with fascism, stating "Nazis are not a thing. Islam is a thing." In April 2018, McInnes labelled a significant section of Muslims as both mentally ill and incestuous, claiming that "Muslims have a problem with inbreeding. They tend to marry their first cousins... and that is a major problem [in the U.S.] because when you have mentally damaged inbreds – which not all Muslims are, but a disproportionate number are – and you have a hate book called the Koran... you end up with a perfect recipe for mass murder."
Sounds to me like he hates them. What do you think?
This is clearly copypasta, why don't you post your source?
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(09-30-2020, 09:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.
BLM is accurate.
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/proud-boys-attack-black-lives-matter-protester-video/
Again, one instance is enough for you. Well, for some groups it is. For others well over a hundred doesn't seem to suffice. Intellectual inconsistency is not a habit to cultivate. But then we also hear that BLM is not a single organization, when it suits your purpose.
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(09-30-2020, 09:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Wait, so two members engaged in a homophobic attack and the entire organization is homophobic? It's interesting you don't apply the same standards to BLM and antifa. And by interesting I mean predictable as hell.
No.
I have plenty more if you want to see them
"A video uploaded to social media shows the Proud Boys knocking a BLM protester to the ground and using homophobic slurs before being handcuffed by police."
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/proud-boys-attack-black-lives-matter-protester-video/
The problem here is clear. You have no idea what you are talking about because you only get your information from the right wing echo chamber. Any one who gets any information from other news sources has heard of this stuff yet you admit that you have never even heard anything about any of this.
You are welcome for the education. Would you like some more?
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(09-30-2020, 09:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is clearly copypasta, why don't you post your source?
Why don't you deny it and I will.
Just keep admitting "I have never heard any of this" an I will keep educating you.
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