Tee’s market price

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-25-2025, 08:32 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: tee is most certainly top 20 when healthy. This is what im talking about

and then you say Green wasnt elite. Enough, bro. Green was elite for a 3 year stretch

AJ Green receiving yards ranking by year...
2011: 17th
2012: 10th
2013: 5th
2014: 20th
2015: 8th
2016: 28th
2017: 12th

He looked like he was going to be after 2013, but never recaptured or built upon that season. AJ Green was extremely good, but there's no way you're putting him in the same category as Calvin Johnson, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones. Those guys are clearly in a different tier.

You brought up 3-year stretch, but even his 3-year stretch wasn't as good as the best 3-year stretch of Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, Wes Welker, Andre Johnson, or Odell Beckham who were all roughly his peers.

- - - - - - - -

Now you look at Chad Johnson....
2003: 4th
2004 6th
2005 3rd
2006: 1st
2007: 3rd
...and that looks different than AJ's. Got a couple 1st Team All-Pros in there, too.

In my personal opinion two things kept AJ from being elite and putting up elite numbers.
1. He struggled against physical press coverage. (Joe Haden was his kryptonite because of that and he had to play him 2 games a year.)
2. His loss of concentration on routine catches leading to far too many drops. He could make outrageous circus catches with the best of them, but then he would drop a couple balls that hit him right in the hands and chest.

[Frank Booth]

(01-25-2025, 11:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: AJ Green receiving yards ranking by year...
2011: 17th
2012: 10th
2013: 5th
2014: 20th
2015: 8th
2016: 28th
2017: 12th

He looked like he was going to be after 2013, but never recaptured or built upon that season. AJ Green was extremely good, but there's no way you're putting him in the same category as Calvin Johnson, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones. Those guys are clearly in a different tier.

You brought up 3-year stretch, but even his 3-year stretch wasn't as good as the best 3-year stretch of Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, Wes Welker, Andre Johnson, or Odell Beckham who were all roughly his peers.

- - - - - - - -

Now you look at Chad Johnson....
2003: 4th
2004 6th
2005 3rd
2006: 1st
2007: 3rd
...and that looks different than AJ's. Got a couple 1st Team All-Pros in there, too.

Chad was elite for sure, but there's more to WR than just yards. 2012 and 2013 AJ was elite. Top 5 receiver in both years. So ok, for 2 years AJ was elite.

he was even 2nd team all pro those 2 years. So yes, youre being dishonest

[wanga]

I like Tee, wish he’d stay but that a bucketload of money. He misses too much action as well. He makes our offence dynamic with JB and Chase and Co. but that’s a bucketload of money.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-25-2025, 11:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: In my personal opinion two things kept AJ from being elite and putting up elite numbers.
1. He struggled against physical press coverage. (Joe Haden was his kryptonite because of that and he had to play him 2 games a year.)
2. His loss of concentration on routine catches leading to far too many drops. He could make outrageous circus catches with the best of them, but then he would drop a couple balls that hit him right in the hands and chest.

3. His QB.

[samhain]

(01-25-2025, 10:47 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: They made a mistake with Bates. Doesn’t mean they have to re-sign everyone to atone for their sin. Should’ve kept Bates and let tee leave

Indeed.  However, Tee is the proven player they have.  He might not be the one they "need", but if he leaves, he creates another hole.  I'd argue that it's a big one.  

Who else are they going to pay?  Joe, Tee, Chase, Trey are they only ones worth committing to.  What do you think they will do with the money they save letting him go and how much do you trust them to get it right?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(Yesterday, 12:01 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 3. His QB.

I know you ninja'd and I rep'd back, but I still feel the need to point out...
In 2024, Justin Jefferson had over 1500 yards and 10 TDs with Sam Darnold as his QB.
In 2023, DJ Moore nearly had 1400 yards with Justin Fields and Tyson Bagant as his QBs.
In 2022, Davante Adams had over 1500 yards and 14 TDs with Derek Carr and Jarrett Stidham as his QBs.


I am realistic about Dalton's ceiling as a QB, but I still will feel compelled to want to fight anyone who says they think those QBs are better than Dalton was.   

[Nicomo Cosca]

(Yesterday, 01:10 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I know you ninja'd and I rep'd back, but I still feel the need to point out...
In 2024, Justin Jefferson had over 1500 yards and 10 TDs with Sam Darnold as his QB.
In 2023, DJ Moore nearly had 1400 yards with Justin Fields and Tyson Bagant as his QBs.
In 2022, Davante Adams had over 1500 yards and 14 TDs with Derek Carr and Jarrett Stidham as his QBs.


I am realistic about Dalton's ceiling as a QB, but I still will feel compelled to want to fight anyone who says they think those QBs are better than Dalton was.   

I was obviously only being half serious, but I do think it’s fair to point out the QB’s those WR’s you brought up had.

AB - Ben
OBJ - Eli
Megatron - Stafford
Julio - Ryan
Thomas - Peyton
Dez - Romo
Welker - Brady

That’s a lot of rings, and MVP’s on that list. The only one you originally mentioned who didn’t have a better QB than AJ is Andre Johnson.

[*bfine32*]

(Yesterday, 01:10 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I know you ninja'd and I rep'd back, but I still feel the need to point out...
In 2024, Justin Jefferson had over 1500 yards and 10 TDs with Sam Darnold as his QB.
In 2023, DJ Moore nearly had 1400 yards with Justin Fields and Tyson Bagant as his QBs.
In 2022, Davante Adams had over 1500 yards and 14 TDs with Derek Carr and Jarrett Stidham as his QBs.


I am realistic about Dalton's ceiling as a QB, but I still will feel compelled to want to fight anyone who says they think those QBs are better than Dalton was.   

Guess, we're going to fight

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(Yesterday, 01:27 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I was obviously only being half serious, but I do think it’s fair to point out the QB’s those WR’s you brought up had.

AB - Ben
OBJ - Eli
Megatron - Stafford
Julio - Ryan
Thomas - Peyton
Dez - Romo
Welker - Brady

That’s a lot of rings, and MVP’s on that list. The only one you originally mentioned who didn’t have a better QB than AJ is Andre Johnson.

I didn't think I was going to be doing THIS tonight, but here we go... LOL

- - - - -
BEN
Per 17 games...
Ben pre-AB ('04-'10): 63.1%, 25 TD/15 INT, 227ypg
Ben + AB ('11-'18): 65.2%, 32 TD/15 INT, 288ypg

He was going to get in regardless because he's a Steeler that won 2 SBs where his defense carried him (he won his second in a season where he had 17 TD/15 INT and 206 yards per game and the team still went 12-4). His career was absolutely statistically carried by AB.
- - - - -
ELI
Won a SB in a season with a 56.1% completion, 23 TD/20 INT, 6.3 YPA, 73.9 QB Rating. The only passing stats he led the NFL in his career were INTs, three times.

3 of his 4 highest passing yard seasons? OBJ's first 3 years. 2 of his 3 career 30 TD seasons? OBJ's first seasons, and his 3rd and only non-OBJ season he threw 31 TD and 25 INT, which is ALMOST a Jameis.

He finished his career .500. If his last name wasn't Manning he'd be treated as the longer-lasting Trent Dilfer that he is.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(Yesterday, 01:58 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I didn't think I was going to be doing THIS tonight, but here we go... LOL

- - - - -
BEN
Per 17 games...
Ben pre-AB ('04-'10): 63.1%, 25 TD/15 INT, 227ypg
Ben + AB ('11-'18): 65.2%, 32 TD/15 INT, 288ypg

He was going to get in regardless because he's a Steeler that won 2 SBs where his defense carried him (he won his second in a season where he had 17 TD/15 INT and 206 yards per game and the team still went 12-4). His career was absolutely statistically carried by AB.
- - - - -
ELI
Won a SB in a season with a 56.1% completion, 23 TD/20 INT, 6.3 YPA, 73.9 QB Rating. The only passing stats he led the NFL in his career were INTs, three times.

3 of his 4 highest passing yard seasons? OBJ's first 3 years. 2 of his 3 career 30 TD seasons? OBJ's first seasons, and his 3rd and only non-OBJ season he threw 31 TD and 25 INT, which is ALMOST a Jameis.

He finished his career .500. If his last name wasn't Manning he'd be treated as the longer-lasting Trent Dilfer that he is.

Eli is debatable, but Ben was definitely better than Andy.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-25-2025, 11:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: AJ Green receiving yards ranking by year...
2011: 17th
2012: 10th
2013: 5th
2014: 20th
2015: 8th
2016: 28th
2017: 12th

He looked like he was going to be after 2013, but never recaptured or built upon that season. AJ Green was extremely good, but there's no way you're putting him in the same category as Calvin Johnson, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones. Those guys are clearly in a different tier.

You brought up 3-year stretch, but even his 3-year stretch wasn't as good as the best 3-year stretch of Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, Wes Welker, Andre Johnson, or Odell Beckham who were all roughly his peers.

- - - - - - - -

Now you look at Chad Johnson....
2003: 4th
2004 6th
2005 3rd
2006: 1st
2007: 3rd
...and that looks different than AJ's. Got a couple 1st Team All-Pros in there, too.

In my personal opinion two things kept AJ from being elite and putting up elite numbers.
1. He struggled against physical press coverage. (Joe Haden was his kryptonite because of that and he had to play him 2 games a year.)
2. His loss of concentration on routine catches leading to far too many drops. He could make outrageous circus catches with the best of them, but then he would drop a couple balls that hit him right in the hands and chest.

THIS !

I loved AJ and he would easily make my top 25 favorite Bengals of all time list. But he did has his limitations as you point out.

[ERIC1]

(01-25-2025, 11:12 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I would not sign him to that level of deal, draft his replacement, tag or trade him, reset our focus on defense and offense line, we just had the most productive passing output in Burrow era and did not make the playoffs, passing game is not going to be the problem even with losing Tee, especially we get better guard play and better defense line play

110%

[2MinutesHate]

If we take a look at positional spending around the rest of the league, it's painfully obvious we absolutely cannot spend $60+ million of the cap on just two WR's.
Keep in mind that these numbers are for the whole group, not just two guys.  

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/position/_/year/2025/table/active/type/cap_total/sort/wr/dir/desc

You may think that  Seattle is spending $69 million, so why can't we?  They also are spending almost $70 million more in 2025 than the league average in total spending, so that's an anomaly and there's no way they pay Lockett $30 million for another 600 yards or less next season.  

I think Burrow is a smart guy and can understand the numbers as well as anyone, so it's mostly just lip service when he describes Tee as a "need".  Joe probably knows Tee is already gone and is just trying to pump up his friend's value for the offseason feeding frenzy that we should not take part in.

Next season, If we do not address the reasons (OL and DL)we're not playing in the AFC title game and we will be even worse.  It was a good run with Tee, but now it's over and it's time to start fixing the real problems.

Tee may be worth $28 million/year to a team that does not have a WR1 already and that's great.  
Fortunately, we already have one, but he's going to be very, very expensive now.....

[kevin]

(Yesterday, 11:39 AM)2MinutesHate Wrote: If we take a look at positional spending around the rest of the league, it's painfully obvious we absolutely cannot spend $60+ million of the cap on just two WR's.
Keep in mind that these numbers are for the whole group, not just two guys.  

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/position/_/year/2025/table/active/type/cap_total/sort/wr/dir/desc

You may think that  Seattle is spending $69 million, so why can't we?  They also are spending almost $70 million more in 2025 than the league average in total spending, so that's an anomaly and there's no way they pay Lockett $30 million for another 600 yards or less next season.  

I think Burrow is a smart guy and can understand the numbers as well as anyone, so it's mostly just lip service when he describes Tee as a "need".  Joe probably knows Tee is already gone and is just trying to pump up his friend's value for the offseason feeding frenzy that we should not take part in.

If we do not address the reasons (OL and DL) we're not playing in the AFC title game today in the offseason, we will be even worse next year.  It was a good run with Tee, but now it's over and it's time to start fixing the real problems.

I agree.  They can't spend 60 million on Chase and Higgins.  They have to keep Burrow to Chase.  

Just as Boyd left, Higgins will leave and would have been gone last year if not for the Franchise Tag used on him.  

Add in the Bengals missed the play-offs with Chase, Higgins, Boyd.  Then missed the play-offs with Chase and Higgins.  So the idea that the Bengals WR's can't be beat, doesn't hold water. The Bengals are getting beat.  

Very simple, they need to keep Chase, but team needs some less expensive guys as the other pass options.  Draft picks do not make 30 million dollars, and perhaps the draft will have another Higgins or Boyd at rookie contract pay for a few years.  The Bengals went Super Bowl with a good Defense, and back to AFC Championship the next year.  Going cheap on Defense to pay Burrow and others coming off rookie contracts, the Bengals have missed play-offs 2 seasons in a row due to poor Defense,  You can't win without Blocking and Tackling.  Good O lines and good Defenses win.  

So I agree with you.  If the Bengals spend this much on Chase and Higgins and Burrow, the rest of the team will be horse meat and continue to miss the play-offs. This isn't computer game football, or fantasy football.  Bengals will not win without upgrade to Defense and Blocking.  

I point to Kansas City Chiefs who did not pay Hill, but have been winning Super Bowls without him.  Just as they kept Mahomes to Kelce, keeping Burrow to Chase should open up money to be spent on other areas of The Team to get back in The Hunt. Buffalo let a top WR go, but they are in AFC Championship.  


GO BENGALS

[t3r3e3]

(Yesterday, 01:58 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I didn't think I was going to be doing THIS tonight, but here we go... LOL

- - - - -
BEN
Per 17 games...
Ben pre-AB ('04-'10): 63.1%, 25 TD/15 INT, 227ypg
Ben + AB ('11-'18): 65.2%, 32 TD/15 INT, 288ypg

He was going to get in regardless because he's a Steeler that won 2 SBs where his defense carried him (he won his second in a season where he had 17 TD/15 INT and 206 yards per game and the team still went 12-4). His career was absolutely statistically carried by AB.
- - - - -
ELI
Won a SB in a season with a 56.1% completion, 23 TD/20 INT, 6.3 YPA, 73.9 QB Rating. The only passing stats he led the NFL in his career were INTs, three times.

3 of his 4 highest passing yard seasons? OBJ's first 3 years. 2 of his 3 career 30 TD seasons? OBJ's first seasons, and his 3rd and only non-OBJ season he threw 31 TD and 25 INT, which is ALMOST a Jameis.

He finished his career .500. If his last name wasn't Manning he'd be treated as the longer-lasting Trent Dilfer that he is.

Take the Super Bowl MVP’s out of it and Eli’s passer rating and most stats ain’t all that different than Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick. The only thing Eli ever led the league in was INT’s, and he did it twice. Eli is horribly overrated, and all this HoF talk is dumb; he’s riding his brother’s legacy.

[Bengalbug]

(Yesterday, 12:18 PM)kevin Wrote: I agree.  They can't spend 60 million on Chase and Higgins.  They have to keep Burrow to Chase.  

Just as Boyd left, Higgins will leave and would have been gone last year if not for the Franchise Tag used on him.  

Add in the Bengals missed the play-offs with Chase, Higgins, Boyd.  Then missed the play-offs with Chase and Higgins.  So the idea that the Bengals WR's can't be beat, doesn't hold water. The Bengals are getting beat.  

Very simple, they need to keep Chase, but team needs some less expensive guys as the other pass options.  Draft picks do not make 30 million dollars, and perhaps the draft will have another Higgins or Boyd at rookie contract pay for a few years.  The dam went Super Bowl with a good Defense, and back to AFC Championship the next year.  Going cheap on Defense to pay Burrow and others coming off rookie contracts, the Bengals have missed play-offs 2 seasons in a row due to poor Defense,  You can't win without Blocking and Tackling.  Good O lines and good Defenses win.  

So I agree with you.  If the Bengals spend this much on Chase and Higgins and Burrow, the rest of the team will be horse meat and continue to miss the play-offs. This isn't computer game football, or fantasy football.  Bengals will not win without upgrade to Defense and Blocking.  

I point to Kansas City Chiefs who did not pay Hill, but have been winning Super Bowls without him.  Just as they kept Mahomes to Kelce, keeping Burrow to Chase should open up money to be spent on other areas of The Team to get back in The Hunt. Buffalo let a top WR go, but they are in AFC Championship.  


GO BENGALS

If the bengals were developing players then this argument stands. The reality is the bengals have to start drafting and developing players for this to make sense. As it sits? You have to keep Higgins, Hendrickson, Chase and burrow. If the bengals were drafting pro-bowl/all-pro caliber players routinely then you have to make tough decisions. You don’t trade top/great/elite players for a mostly booty roster behind it.

There are not many players on the roster, behind the four I listed that you can look back and say “production meets pay”. Most of them are overpayed. Sure? You can bring up free agents? So let’s let Higgins walk so we can, again, overpay (most likely) for middling production.

The lack of drafting/developing is the sole reason they must pay Higgins and chase. Had they hit on more than Burrow, Chase and Higgins since 2020… ofc you would have difficult decisions with various players up for extension.

[*Synric*]

What would the cap hits look like for a 4 year 100m 25m aav Tee Higgins contract?

2025 - 18m
2026 - 22m
2027 - 28m
2028 - 32m

That 4th year would be more of an option year that the team will have the choice to extend (lower the cap hit), trade, or cut Tee.

[J24]

(01-25-2025, 09:36 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, what are the Bengals supposed to do if Tee's hamstring decides to flare up right before the playoffs, rather than in the middle of the season? And yes, I do want the team to re-sign Mike Hilton and BJ Hill to short deals. I never said a word about Hubbard, other than Murphy isn't capable of filling his shoes, I think that Hubbard likely plays out his last year and the Bengals keep looking for that replacement.

What to you do if Chase tears an ACL? What do you do if Burrow gets a season ending injury? You either are screwed or you hope others step up. That's the reality of the NFL. Tee's in the same boat.

[Whatever]

(01-25-2025, 03:18 PM)J24 Wrote: Brandin Ayuik just got 30 million per year. 

True, though Aiyuk was coming off a 1300+ yard season in which he was a second team All Pro.  Tee is coming off back to back seasons where he failed to hit 1000 yards and has never been an All Pro.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(Yesterday, 01:22 PM)J24 Wrote: What to you do if Chase tears an ACL? What do you do if Burrow gets a season ending injury? You either are screwed or you hope others step up. That's the reality of the NFL. Tee's in the same boat.

Can we not?