Intermediate step to beginning of life uncovered

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 09:55 AM)Beaker Wrote: I read post 310....and it again doesnt answer the basic question. Does god know all? Does he know the beginning and the end?

I've answered that about a billion times. 

Your argument is flawed.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 12:16 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If I am omniscient, but not omnipotent, and know tonght's winning lottery numbers the winning numbers are the only numbers which will be drawn. It is impossible for any nonwinning numbers to be drawn. Because if a different number were to be drawn in the future it would change the future which I saw, but  because I'm omniscient I would have seen that change from the beginning.

So although I didn't affect anything the result cannot change. So if God knows I will reject him before Creation there is no possible way for me to accept Him. Because if I chose to accept God in my future life, God would know I'm going to Heaven.  But, God knows I'm going to Hell, not Heaven.

If God knows you will reject him in the end, it's because you chose to do it while you were here. Not because he made it that way.

The winning numbers were always the winning numbers once they were drawn. 

You're not getting any argument from me that once the outcome happens, that's the way it always was. My argument is, omniscience is only aware of the outcome, it doesn't effect the outcome. It was always that way because that's the path it took.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 12:35 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I agree.



I agree.


I agree.

I'm going to Hell based upon my choices. God already knows my future choices before I make them.  God already knows I'm going to Hell for the choices I will make in the future.   If God knows I'm going to Hell for the choices I will make in the future it is impossible for me to make different choices so I can go to Heaven.

Yep. No argument here. That's why people need to make the right choices now, so the end is what they want.

[Benton]

(06-18-2015, 11:21 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: One of their rationalizations is if the non believers are allowed to go to Heaven then what incentive is there to become saved. Also, God will reveal Himself to you if you believe even if you aren't aware of Jesus. I would suggest you read the articles because they quote the verses to support their belief because I don't want to take a position where it seems like I am proving/defending their belief.

If you've never heard the word, then you get a pass. If you hear it and chose not to believe, you don't.

(06-18-2015, 12:16 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If I am omniscient, but not omnipotent, and know tonght's winning lottery numbers the winning numbers are the only numbers which will be drawn. It is impossible for any nonwinning numbers to be drawn. Because if a different number were to be drawn in the future it would change the future which I saw, but  because I'm omniscient I would have seen that change from the beginning.

So although I didn't affect anything the result cannot change. So if God knows I will reject him before Creation there is no possible way for me to accept Him. Because if I chose to accept God in my future life, God would know I'm going to Heaven.  But, God knows I'm going to Hell, not Heaven.

Knowing the number that will be drawn has no effect on what number will be drawn. If you know a coin flip is going to be heads every third time, knowing has no effect on someone flipping. If you know what card will be drawn from a deck every time, it has no effect on someone drawing it. If you know the lottery numbers — and take no action to change those numbers — it does not change any numbers.

If He knows you will reject Him and takes no action to change that, it is still your decision not to accept Him. Or, if He takes action — maybe with a giant burning bush or something — and you still do not, it's still your decision.

If you know something is going to happen, your knowledge of that does not change the outcome.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-18-2015, 12:35 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Because you made the wrong decisions while you were here. 

That was your fault.

Because it was predestined.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 12:46 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Because it was predestined.

That's your opinion, that you're entitled to. I disagree.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-18-2015, 12:51 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: That's your opinion, that you're entitled to. I disagree.

Stands to reason if my outcome preceeded me.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 12:54 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Stands to reason if my outcome preceeded me.

Damn... and here i thought we had this part wrapped up...

The knowledge of your outcome preceded you...because it's what you chose to do while you were here. 

But, no need to endlessly debate this. We've done a good job of that already. You believe what you've stated and i believe what i've stated. 

I'm willing to leave it at that, in lieu of no new angles/information/ideas.

[SteelCitySouth]

(06-18-2015, 12:54 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Stands to reason if my outcome preceeded me.

This.  It is not possible for your future to be known and somehow not equal predestination.  That's not a matter of opinion.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 01:02 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: This.  It is not possible for your future to be known and somehow not equal predestination.  That's not a matter of opinion.

What will cause your future to happen?

[Belsnickel]

Omniscience doesn't mean that your course is plotted already. The idea behind it is (if God chooses to know) he knows you better than you know yourself. He knows what decisions you will make. They weren't made for you. There is a distinct difference there.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-18-2015, 01:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Damn... and here i thought we had this part wrapped up...

The knowledge of your outcome preceded you...because it's what you chose to do while you were here. 

But, no need to endlessly debate this. We've done a good job of that already. You believe what you've stated and i believe what i've stated. 

I'm willing to leave it at that, in lieu of no new angles/information/ideas.

If that isn't the definition of predestined, what is?

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-18-2015, 01:04 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: If that isn't the definition of predestined, what is?

Determining an outcome in advance. 

[SteelCitySouth]

(06-18-2015, 01:03 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: What will cause your future to happen?

Well, I don't believe anything causes my future to happen.  We are discussing the flawed reasoning that God can be omniscient/omnipotent, know your future prior to your creation and yet at the same time provide you with free will...it's nonsense.  It's nonsense because your future can not be known if nothing is causing your future.

[SteelCitySouth]

(06-18-2015, 01:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Damn... and here i thought we had this part wrapped up...

The knowledge of your outcome preceded you...because it's what you will chose to do while you were here. 

But, no need to endlessly debate this. We've done a good job of that already. You believe what you've stated and i believe what i've stated. 

I'm willing to leave it at that, in lieu of no new angles/information/ideas.

You missed a word and it is the reason you are struggling with the concept.

[Benton]

(06-18-2015, 01:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Omniscience doesn't mean that your course is plotted already. The idea behind it is (if God chooses to know) he knows you better than you know yourself. He knows what decisions you will make. They weren't made for you. There is a distinct difference there.

Agreed. But nobody's going to listen to that. The easiest way to disprove the concept of a God who wants the best for you is to say it's a God that made someone for the sole purpose of being punished. So, those who don't want to believe aren't going to consent that knowing and allowing are two different things.

[Benton]

(06-18-2015, 01:14 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Well, I don't believe anything causes my future to happen.  We are discussing the flawed reasoning that God can be omniscient/omnipotent, know your future prior to your creation and yet at the same time provide you with free will...it's nonsense.  It's nonsense because your future can not be known if nothing is causing your future.

You're causing your future.

[SteelCitySouth]

(06-18-2015, 01:19 PM)Benton Wrote: Agreed. But nobody's going to listen to that. The easiest way to disprove the concept of a God who wants the best for you is to say it's a God that made someone for the sole purpose of being punished. So, those who don't want to believe aren't going to consent that knowing and allowing are two different things.

Hold the phone there Ben...It's certainly not that I am not listening....It's that I completely disagree with you.  These are long debated concepts that smarter men than you and I have discussed.  I highly doubt that it comes down to one person or another is or isn't listening.  

[SteelCitySouth]

(06-18-2015, 01:22 PM)Benton Wrote: You're causing your future.

I agree but for different reasons than you do...which is the actual debate.  Who is not listening?  

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-18-2015, 01:07 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Determining an outcome in advance. 

Well if I did not exist I couldn't have determined it.   That leaves only God.