Trump on undocumented immigrants: 'These aren't people. These are animals.'

[fredtoast]

Here is the deal.

From Trumps quotes you can't tell if he is just talking about criminal coming into the US or if he is talking about everyone coming into the US.

However his previous comment on ALL immigrants crossing the border makes it very clear how he feels about ALL of them. They are not good people like us. they are "the worst" chosen by the Mexican government and sent to America. They are "rapists and murderers and drug mules".

Anyone claiming these new quotes are being taken out of context are just ignoring everything else he has ever said.

[*bfine32*]

(05-18-2018, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is the deal.

From Trumps quotes you can't tell if he is just talking about criminal coming into the US or if he is talking about everyone coming into the US.

However his previous comment on ALL immigrants crossing the border makes it very clear how he feels about ALL of them. They are not good people like us.  they are "the worst" chosen by the Mexican government and sent to America.  They are "rapists and murderers and drug mules".

Anyone claiming these new quotes are being taken out of context are just ignoring everything else he has ever said.

Here's the report from CSPAN (the folks that was actually there and videoed the conference):

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4729714/president-trump-calls-gang-members-animals

They seem to understand the comments were in reference to MS13, but they most likely just ignored everything else he has ever said. 

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 02:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Here's the report from CSPAN (the folks that was actually there and videoed the conference):

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4729714/president-trump-calls-gang-members-animals

They seem to understand the comments were in reference to MS13, but they most likely just ignored everything else he has ever said. 

Yeah a neutral source gave him the "benefit of the doubt" that most of will not based on everything else he has ever said.

Weird, eh?

But we'll just accept what he "meant".  We really do need to look at what's in his heart versus his words.  

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2018, 03:20 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yeah a neutral source gave him the "benefit of the doubt" that most of will not based on everything else he has ever said.

Weird, eh?

But we'll just accept what he "meant".  We really do need to look at what's in his heart versus his words.  

Yeah, either they gave him the benefit of the doubt or knew that they discussion was focused on MS13 and other violent gang members and hoe Sanctuary city laws can sometime aid these animals. 

Yeah, but let's roll with benefit of the doubt and not the words he used while having a discussion about MS13 gang members,


As I said earlier what he said is clear and anyone who doesn't fully understand this must question his/her rationality and/or comprehension. 

I get that you don't want to understand; that way you look less foolish about posting the thread and your initial comments. 

[Dill]

(05-21-2018, 02:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Here's the report from CSPAN (the folks that was actually there and videoed the conference):

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4729714/president-trump-calls-gang-members-animals

They seem to understand the comments were in reference to MS13, but they most likely just ignored everything else he has ever said. 

Why do you suppose Trump shifts to describing "people"--"thousands" of them?  

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2018, 03:30 PM)Dill Wrote: Why do you suppose Trump shifts to describing "people"--"thousands" of them?  

Perhaps I could provide better insight if you provide me with the transcript to which you refer. Perhaps because MS13 membership is in the 1000s

I thought there were only 2, but perhaps there are 3; let's find out: Who was Trump referring to when he made the animal statement? Was it all undocumented immigrants as the OP suggests or was it MS13 and other violent criminals as CSPAN asserts? 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The hyper partisan way in today's society is out of control.

Trump could walk outside in front of reporters and say that the sky was really blue and the headlines will read "Trump Hates Mexicans" then go on to explain that because Trump said the sky was blue it really means that he hates Mexican Gardeners because obviously all gardeners are Mexican.

It's almost to the point where I want to vote for Trump in 2020!

I said almost, not that I will.

[Dill]

(05-21-2018, 03:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Perhaps I could provide better insight if you provide me with the transcript to which you refer.

I thought there were only 2, but perhaps there are 3; let's find out: Who was Trump referring to when he made the animal statement? Was it all undocumented immigrants as the OP suggests or was it MS13 and other violent criminals as CSPAN asserts? 

I am referring to the video to which you posted a link. 00:11.

A sheriff expresses frustration to Trump about specific laws which limit reporting to ICE.  Trump responds with a vague, wandering discourse about the "people" coming into the US whom "you wouldn't believe how bad these people are. These aren't people. These are animals. We are taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that's never happened before." 

I was more disturbed by the vagueness of the response. Trump and his "we" are working very hard and making great progress. Nothing about the specific legal threshold to which the sheriff referred.

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 03:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Perhaps I could provide better insight if you provide me with the transcript to which you refer. Perhaps because MS13 membership is in the 1000s

I thought there were only 2, but perhaps there are 3; let's find out: Who was Trump referring to when he made the animal statement? Was it all undocumented immigrants as the OP suggests or was it MS13 and other violent criminals as CSPAN asserts? 

Do mean what did he "mean" to say?

Because he was speaking right after someone else mentioned MS13 so he MAY have meant them...since he lied about how many he has deported before.  

Of course he's mad disparaging remarks about ALL illegal immigrants before too.



I guess we can't even talk about his actual words anymore either....just what he "probably" "meant".

"Give him a chance."

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 03:30 PM)Dill Wrote: Why do you suppose Trump shifts to describing "people"--"thousands" of them?  

It can't be because of his past statements about "most" illegal immigrants!

We must look into his heart at what he "meant" when speaking after someone who spoke clearly about a specific group.

[Dill]

(05-21-2018, 03:46 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: The hyper partisan way in today's society is out of control.

Trump could walk outside in front of reporters and say that the sky was really blue and the headlines will read "Trump Hates Mexicans" then go on to explain that because Trump said the sky was blue it really means that he hates Mexican Gardeners because obviously all gardeners are Mexican.

It's almost to the point where I want to vote for Trump in 2020!

I said almost, not that I will.

Or he could walk up to a microphone and say that Mexico is sending us their worst people, rapists and drug users. Though some of them are good people.

Then the liberal media reports that he called Mexicans "rapists"  when he just meant a lot of them are. Not some.

I don't remember the press claiming things like that about Obama.

They have gotten completely out of control with their Trump hate.

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2018, 03:51 PM)Dill Wrote: I am referring to the video to which you posted a link. 00:11.

A sheriff expresses frustration to Trump about specific laws which limit reporting to ICE.  Trump responds with a vague, wandering discourse about the "people" coming into the US whom "you wouldn't believe how bad these people are. These aren't people. These are animals. We are taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that's never happened before." 

Oh Trump was replying to a comment about the difficulty in detaining MS13 gang members. Here's the transcript:

Quote:Fresno County Sheriff Margaret Mims: Thank you. There could be an MS-13 member I know about — if they don’t reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it.

President Trump: We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.

OK I was respectful enough to answer your question. How about answering mine:


Who was Trump referring to when he made the animal statement? Was it all undocumented immigrants as the OP suggests or was it MS13 and other violent criminals as CSPAN asserts? 

[*bfine32*]

Let's try an experiment:

Person A: MS13 are very bad, they murder, sex traffic, and deal in drugs.

Person B: These are some very bad people. Actually they're not people, they are animals.

Who is Person B talking about?

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2018, 03:56 PM)GMDino Wrote: It can't be because of his past statements about "most" illegal immigrants!

We must look into his heart at what he "meant" when speaking after someone who spoke clearly about a specific group.

I can provide a quote in the past where Trump has referred to MS 13 as Animals. Can you provide a quote where he has called most illegal immigrants Animals? 

It is cute that you continue down this road when all other rational folks in this forum (except Fred and I'm trying to get an answer from Dill, but he's being coy) realize exactly what he was talking about. 

[Dill]

(05-21-2018, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Let's try an experiment:

Person A: MS13 are very bad, they murder, sex traffic, and deal in drugs.

Person B: These are some very bad people. Actually they're not people, they are animals.

Who is Person B talking about?

Given the demonstrative pronoun, I would say Person B is referring to MS13.

Now lets remove the pronoun. Person B says.

"We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals."


Now I am not sure whether Person B is referring to MS 13 alone or to MS 13 as part of a larger group of "animals" or most or all immigrants.

Why can't Person B just continue referring to MS13? "This gang is composed of some very bad people . . . These aren't people. These are animals."  

Back to my question, which you didn't answer, Why do you suppose Trump shifts from MS 13 to "people"?  

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2018, 04:15 PM)Dill Wrote: Given the demonstrative pronoun, I would say Person B is referring to MS13.

Now lets remove the pronoun. Person B says.

"We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals."


Now I am not sure whether Person B is referring to MS 13 alone or to MS 13 as part of a larger group of "animals" or most or all immigrants.

Why can't Person B just continue referring to MS13? "This gang is composed of some very bad people . . . These aren't people. These are animals."  

Back to my question, which you didn't answer, Why do you suppose Trump shifts from MS 13 to "people"?  

Because members of MS 13 are ***** sapiens and he initially refers to them as such.

OK, no more respect from me. I have answered your question 2 while you have yet to answer the very simple question I posed to you. No more answers from me until you return the courtesy. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2018, 04:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Because members of MS 13 are ***** sapiens and he initially refers to them as such.

OK, no more respect from me. I have answered your question 2 while you have yet to answer the very simple question I posed to you. No more answers from me until you return the courtesy. 

For real? You can't say the scientific name for humans in this forum be I can say shit? 

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 03:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh Trump was replying to a comment about the difficulty in detaining MS13 gang members. Here's the transcript:




OK I was respectful enough to answer your question. How about answering mine:


Who was Trump referring to when he made the animal statement? Was it all undocumented immigrants as the OP suggests or was it MS13 and other violent criminals as CSPAN asserts? 

Let's change your bold and see how it reads....

Quote:Fresno County Sheriff Margaret Mims: Thank you. There could be an MS-13 member I know about — if they don’t reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it.

Ms. Mims is very clear that among the immigrants arrested she might have MS 13 members...that do not reach a certain "threshold".

Now let's see if the POTUS responded clearly to her concerns about the gang members possibly slipping through the cracks.

Quote:President Trump: We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.

Nope.

And while I know Trump fans are getting their panties in a bunch over the nitpicking, rest assured even *I* am not sure he meant all illegal immigrants are animals.

I think he's a poor speaker.
I think he speaks without listening.

I think he opens himself up to criticism of this sort because of all of the above AND his past rhetoric about Mexicans.

So let's be clear that he was not clear but there is enough ambiguity to allow critics to point out another foot-in-mouth moment for the POTUS and supporters to say he is treated unfairly because past statements should not be used to reference current ones "out of context".

And that's all I have to say about that.

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2018, 04:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: Let's change your bold and see how it reads....



Ms. Mims is very clear that among the immigrants arrested she might have MS 13 members...that do not reach a certain "threshold".

Now let's see if the POTUS responded clearly to her concerns about the gang members possibly slipping through the cracks.


Nope.

And while I know Trump fans are getting their panties in a bunch over the nitpicking, rest assured even *I* am not sure he meant all illegal immigrants are animals.  

I think he's a poor speaker.  
I think he speaks without listening.  

I think he opens himself up to criticism of this sort because of all of the above AND his past rhetoric about Mexicans.

So let's be clear that he was not clear but there is enough ambiguity to allow critics to point out another foot-in-mouth moment for the POTUS and supporters to say he is treated unfairly because past statements should not be used to reference current ones "out of context".

And that's all I have to say about that.

Changing the bold changed nothing. Can't speak for a Trump fan, but I don't see folks getting their panties in a bunch; however, I do see some folks letting their dislike cloud their rational thought. Luckily it's not to many, just mainly the empty cans. 

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 04:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Changing the bold changed nothing. Can't speak for a Trump fan,

*snicker*

Quote:but I don't see folks getting their panties in a bunch; however, I do see some folks letting their dislike cloud their rational thought. Luckily it's not to many, just mainly the empty cans. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/5/18/17368716/trump-animals-immigrants-illegal-ms-13

Quote:This context makes a few things clear.


First of all, Trump was not asked a question about MS-13. He was not asked a question at all. He was commiserating with Sheriff Mims about the restrictions that the California “sanctuary” law puts on the ability of local law enforcement officers to make decisions about when someone should be flagged to ICE.

Second of all, the context in which MS-13 was mentioned was itself very specific: someone identified by the sheriff’s department as a “known” gang member but who doesn’t meet the “threshold” of being charged with or convicted of a serious crime.

Third, Trump’s response to Mims’s comment wasn’t actually a response to the point she was making. It wasn’t about people in local jails in the US. He first referred to people “trying to come in” to the country and then to people who are being “taken out of the country.” He then launched into a complaint about bad US laws that allow people to reenter the country repeatedly — something that also has nothing to do with the complaint Mims was making.

In context, Trump’s “animals” comment was simply part of a riff; something at best tangentially related to the conversation that he and Mims had been having up to that point.

That riff may well have been inspired by Mims’s reference to MS-13 in her previous remark. At the same time, though, Trump manifestly wasn’t talking about the same people Mims was talking about: MS-13 members in American jails without serious criminal records.

The president often does this. His comments in unscripted settings often fail to follow any obvious train of thought; he often goes off on tangents and rehashes old riffs; he often fails to demonstrate an understanding of the actual policies being discussed. This is why “what did he mean” is so often an open question. But because he’s the president of the United States, ambiguous statements can’t be left ambiguous — they’re going to acquire whatever meaning people can make from them, based on their existing understanding of what kind of person the president is.

The context of Trump’s “animals” comment: a three-year political career of talking about immigrant criminals

To people who are more skeptical of the “mainstream media” than they are of the president, the coverage of the president’s remarks seemed like a clear-cut case of “fake news” — reporters taking Trump’s words out of context to make him sound like a racist when he was in fact talking about violent criminals. “I don’t think the term the president used was strong enough,” press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders told reporters. “It took an animal to stab a man 100 times and decapitate him and cut his heart out.” And it inspired a wave of fact-checking and finger-wagging from media reporters themselves.

The Trump critics who were initially outraged about Trump’s “animals” comment, however, see this entire conversation about the context of Wednesday’s exchange as more or less missing the point.

They believe that Trump has shown a willingness to use racist language in the past and has demonstrated that he believes some people of color aren’t really human. Those facts, they believe, are more relevant context than what Sheriff Mims said at the roundtable. And they believe that in that context, it is foolish or even dangerous to present the “animals” remark as if there’s any ambiguity.

This is the debate that has defined Donald Trump’s political career. His very first speech as a presidential candidate made a riffing reference to rapists and murderers crossing into the US, spurring outrage from immigrants and progressives that the president had called Mexicans and immigrants “criminals.”
Trump gleefully exploited the outrage and parlayed it into a surge in the primary polls.

Ever since, his most frequent and enthusiastic rhetorical theme has been that Americans are in danger from criminals coming into the US, and that his particular immigration agenda is the best way to stop them. This is why he keeps talking about MS-13; this is why he keeps dwelling on a few particularly gory crimes and calling the gang “animals.”

Trump critics accuse him of labeling all immigrants (or all Latinos) criminals; his critics’ critics counter that he isn’t explicitly talking about all immigrants or all Latinos and that it’s liberals who think nonracial comments are about race.

Every iteration of this fight encourages both sides’ viewpoints. It encourages Trump’s defenders — and those who are anti-anti-Trump — to believe that Trump’s words are being taken out of context to suit a preexisting narrative. It encourages Trump’s critics to believe that the president is deliberately engaging in dog-whistle politics because he knows exactly where the line is and how to tiptoe over it without admitting to doing so.

"context"